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Question! What is a Safe lead set-up?


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#1
noknot

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what is the only real "safe" set up we can use with a lead? Please think hard before you answer this one :idea:
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#2
andypalf

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The safest set up I can think of would be a running rig with a hooklink which is lower in breaking strain than the mainline. I guess a barbless hook would help the fish shake the hook out if need be.

Am I close? :?

#3
zander1

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Use a lighter strain hook link than your mainline on a mainline helicopter set up, tie the lead to the botom of your mainline with a weak link so that if you get snagged whilst playing the fish, the lead will come off leaving you with the fish on the line and no lead. If your mainline snaps, the fish just has a rig in the mouth as there is nothing to stop the hooklink coming off the main line.

The rig components would be a swivel- a rubber bead, a large eye swivel for the hooklink and some 3-4lb line for attaching teh lead to teh swivel. The hooklink on the large eyes swivel could be held in place with a bit of pva foam.
:?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

Posted Image

You could always use a set up where the lead/brick is in the PVA bag of bait and when the pva melts the rig is in place but free lined.

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

#4
noknot

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Hi Andy,

Now that’s what we have been told is a "Safe Rig" However if we really think about it, is it really safe? The hook-link is a lower BS to the mainline, but if the fish is trailing a few feet of line and it gets snagged will the hook-link actually break with the stretch in the line?

Zander,

Now that looks good a " heli" rig without the top bead, will that effect indication to the rod if the fish moves toward you, a top bead may be better?

Nice Diagram too :wink:

#5
moorsey

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My tests (and findings from tethered fish over the years) have indicated that the running rig is the safest as long as it's used without any kind of leader. Any breakage, whether casting or playing a fish, will normally happen at the only knot in the rig......at the hook link swivel, leaving just the hook link for the fish to deal with.
The heli-rig "should" be as safe BUT it is normally used with some kind of leader and this puts the knot behind the hook link. It is possible, and I have found proof, that when the line breaks the leader can "bunch" or pick up a small piece of weed which jams against the knot, and that can be sufficient to stop the hook link from sliding off. In that instance it becomes a very dangerous rig because the fish is actually trailing the lead behind it and therby dragging it through the tree roots etc.

#6
paulmlpss

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Zander,

Now that looks good a " heli" rig without the top bead, will that effect indication to the rod if the fish moves toward you, a top bead may be better?

Nice Diagram too :wink:


Only if the fish swims directly towards you without swimming to left or right. When i have a top bead i have it sliding to a degree. :)

#7
noknot

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My tests (and findings from tethered fish over the years) have indicated that the running rig is the safest as long as it's used without any kind of leader. Any breakage, whether casting or playing a fish, will normally happen at the only knot in the rig......at the hook link swivel, leaving just the hook link for the fish to deal with.
The heli-rig "should" be as safe BUT it is normally used with some kind of leader and this puts the knot behind the hook link. It is possible, and I have found proof, that when the line breaks the leader can "bunch" or pick up a small piece of weed which jams against the knot, and that can be sufficient to stop the hook link from sliding off. In that instance it becomes a very dangerous rig because the fish is actually trailing the lead behind it and therby dragging it through the tree roots etc.


Sounds good in theory Keith, but what if the line cuts off on a bar, snag or muscles ect................Safe? And there is really no need for a leader for a Heli rig, that’s the whole point of the rig.

Paul,

True, but a top bead will give a better indication with a Heli rig IMO.

#8
andypalf

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My thinking is that with a running rig, as a couple have described on this thread, you're most likely to get a breakage either in the hooklink or at the swivel it's attached to. So the most the fish will be trailing will be a hooklink and swivel.

I don't think that there's anything you can do to try and make safe a rig in the event of the mainline cutting as you described noknot. And a running rig would offer you the best option again, the lead will be left in place whilst the fish pulls the line straight through.

#9
moorsey

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My tests (and findings from tethered fish over the years) have indicated that the running rig is the safest as long as it's used without any kind of leader. Any breakage, whether casting or playing a fish, will normally happen at the only knot in the rig......at the hook link swivel, leaving just the hook link for the fish to deal with.
The heli-rig "should" be as safe BUT it is normally used with some kind of leader and this puts the knot behind the hook link. It is possible, and I have found proof, that when the line breaks the leader can "bunch" or pick up a small piece of weed which jams against the knot, and that can be sufficient to stop the hook link from sliding off. In that instance it becomes a very dangerous rig because the fish is actually trailing the lead behind it and therby dragging it through the tree roots etc.


Sounds good in theory Keith, but what if the line cuts off on a bar, snag or muscles ect................Safe? And there is really no need for a leader for a Heli rig, that’s the whole point of the rig.

Paul,

True, but a top bead will give a better indication with a Heli rig IMO.


Both of the rigs can suffer cut offs from bars etc but with a light running rig you can use the new running set ups which not only have large eyes for the line to run to but they now also have "safety" clips to attach the lead. This means that, no matter what, they will jettison the lead weight.
I (many years ago) used to use heli rigs without any leader and found that the angle of the hook link swivel against the line, when playing a big carp, would often guillotine the line just above the lead. The end result was that we all swapped to leaders (normally leadcore) to prevent this happening and without really thinking about what we were doing, we were putting the fish in more danger. Even on a leaderless heli the eye of the hook link swivel is still smaller than a plastic run ring and therefore more likely to jam.

#10
noknot

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Hi Andy,

I am not in disagreement with any of the comments so far, just trying to find the best and safest set up?

Andy don’t forget this is read far more times than its replied to :wink:
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#11
zander1

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Thanks noknot.

I left the bead off as its less to get "trapped" on the rig :)

Moorsey, Is a leaderless heli not safer than a running rig with out a leader????

Think about it, if the running rig snaps, yes there will be no lead but there will be a length of mainline attached to the hooklink swivel... this could become snagged.
With the leaderless helicopter rig, if the line snaps the fish would just be left with a short hooklink that is a lot less likely to snag the fish up????
If the leaderless heli however tangles after it has snapped, the line left could snag up, but would be less likely to and is there for safer than a running rig :)

I haven't got enough experience behind me to say for sure ????????

#12
zander1

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Zander,

Now that looks good a " heli" rig without the top bead, will that effect indication to the rod if the fish moves toward you, a top bead may be better?

Nice Diagram too :wink:


Only if the fish swims directly towards you without swimming to left or right. When i have a top bead i have it sliding to a degree. :)


Or without moving up and down :)

#13
moorsey

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Thanks noknot.

I left the bead off as its less to get "trapped" on the rig :)

Moorsey, Is a leaderless heli not safer than a running rig with out a leader????

Think about it, if the running rig snaps, yes there will be no lead but there will be a length of mainline attached to the hooklink swivel... this could become snagged.
With the leaderless helicopter rig, if the line snaps the fish would just be left with a short hooklink that is a lot less likely to snag the fish up????
If the leaderless heli however tangles after it has snapped, the line left could snag up, but would be less likely to and is there for safer than a running rig :)

I haven't got enough experience behind me to say for sure ????????


Sorry, don't agree with your reasoning. If either rig snap at the hook link swivel the fish is left with just the hook link and swivel so both equally safe. However, if the line is cut let's say 20 yards from the hook link swivel, on the heli rig the hook link swivel must travel the full length of the 20 yards before it loses the lead. In this case the eye of the swivel is small enough to easily jam and leave the fish towing the lead. Also as I said above it is more likely that anglers will use some kind of leader if they are targetting big fish because of the guillotine effect of the swivel on the main line.
With the running rig it is normal to use a large ring as the running piece and these now also have a lead clip built in. I will accept that the fish could be trailing 20 yards of line but, in all of my experience, the carp can usually rid themselves of hooks as long as those hooks aren't being held in place by any weight.
In a real situation snaps are more likely to happen during casting or playing fish or pulling for a break against a snag. In all of these cases the break should happen at the hook link swivel.

#14
zander1

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Thanks noknot.

I left the bead off as its less to get "trapped" on the rig :)

Moorsey, Is a leaderless heli not safer than a running rig with out a leader????

Think about it, if the running rig snaps, yes there will be no lead but there will be a length of mainline attached to the hooklink swivel... this could become snagged.
With the leaderless helicopter rig, if the line snaps the fish would just be left with a short hooklink that is a lot less likely to snag the fish up????
If the leaderless heli however tangles after it has snapped, the line left could snag up, but would be less likely to and is there for safer than a running rig :)

I haven't got enough experience behind me to say for sure ????????


Sorry, don't agree with your reasoning. If either rig snap at the hook link swivel the fish is left with just the hook link and swivel so both equally safe. However, if the line is cut let's say 20 yards from the hook link swivel, on the heli rig the hook link swivel must travel the full length of the 20 yards before it loses the lead. In this case the eye of the swivel is small enough to easily jam and leave the fish towing the lead. Also as I said above it is more likely that anglers will use some kind of leader if they are targetting big fish because of the guillotine effect of the swivel on the main line.
With the running rig it is normal to use a large ring as the running piece and these now also have a lead clip built in. I will accept that the fish could be trailing 20 yards of line but, in all of my experience, the carp can usually rid themselves of hooks as long as those hooks aren't being held in place by any weight.
In a real situation snaps are more likely to happen during casting or playing fish or pulling for a break against a snag. In all of these cases the break should happen at the hook link swivel.


Very good points Keith :)

So are we saying that both rigs are safe, however due to angler misuse or the loss of fish causing the angler to change to a leader, the heli setup is more dangerous????
The running rig setup is simpler in construction and harder to misuse as the leader will be less likely to be needed as ther cannot be a guillotine effect???
Perhaps a bead swivel could minimise the guillotine effect on the heli, coupled with a silicon sleeve to act as a buffer from the knot to the bead swivel as well as or a rubber bead??? Would this make the set up as safe or safer???

As for fish ejecting hooks, i was under the impression that the fish can use the weight of a lead to help eject the hook, where as the drag of trailing mainline in the water (say 20ft) would not be concentrated in one place to gain momentum (via the fish shaking its head etc) to throw the hook but rather keep the hook in place????

Im not saying that i am right by any means, im just trying to work out the benefits and disadvantages to each set up and to keep teh subject open to debate, This could be a very good thread indeed :)

#15
levigsp

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Use a lighter strain hook link than your mainline on a mainline helicopter set up, tie the lead to the botom of your mainline with a weak link so that if you get snagged whilst playing the fish, the lead will come off leaving you with the fish on the line and no lead. If your mainline snaps, the fish just has a rig in the mouth as there is nothing to stop the hooklink coming off the main line.

The rig components would be a swivel- a rubber bead, a large eye swivel for the hooklink and some 3-4lb line for attaching teh lead to teh swivel. The hooklink on the large eyes swivel could be held in place with a bit of pva foam.
:?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

Posted Image

You could always use a set up where the lead/brick is in the PVA bag of bait and when the pva melts the rig is in place but free lined.

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

Hi Zander this is my version of the chod/silt rig mentioned in the thread on "heavy silt chod", however tieing the swival with pva results in tangles,so I tie a runring or bead with huge hole above the swival with pva tape,also the swival must be a ring swival with a huge runring.
Fantastic screeming runs and very very safe.

#16
levigsp

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Thanks noknot.

I left the bead off as its less to get "trapped" on the rig :)

Moorsey, Is a leaderless heli not safer than a running rig with out a leader????

Think about it, if the running rig snaps, yes there will be no lead but there will be a length of mainline attached to the hooklink swivel... this could become snagged.
With the leaderless helicopter rig, if the line snaps the fish would just be left with a short hooklink that is a lot less likely to snag the fish up????
If the leaderless heli however tangles after it has snapped, the line left could snag up, but would be less likely to and is there for safer than a running rig :)

I haven't got enough experience behind me to say for sure ????????


Sorry, don't agree with your reasoning. If either rig snap at the hook link swivel the fish is left with just the hook link and swivel so both equally safe. However, if the line is cut let's say 20 yards from the hook link swivel, on the heli rig the hook link swivel must travel the full length of the 20 yards before it loses the lead. In this case the eye of the swivel is small enough to easily jam and leave the fish towing the lead. Also as I said above it is more likely that anglers will use some kind of leader if they are targetting big fish because of the guillotine effect of the swivel on the main line.
With the running rig it is normal to use a large ring as the running piece and these now also have a lead clip built in. I will accept that the fish could be trailing 20 yards of line but, in all of my experience, the carp can usually rid themselves of hooks as long as those hooks aren't being held in place by any weight.
In a real situation snaps are more likely to happen during casting or playing fish or pulling for a break against a snag. In all of these cases the break should happen at the hook link swivel.


Very good points Keith :)

So are we saying that both rigs are safe, however due to angler misuse or the loss of fish causing the angler to change to a leader, the heli setup is more dangerous????
The running rig setup is simpler in construction and harder to misuse as the leader will be less likely to be needed as ther cannot be a guillotine effect???
Perhaps a bead swivel could minimise the guillotine effect on the heli, coupled with a silicon sleeve to act as a buffer from the knot to the bead swivel as well as or a rubber bead??? Would this make the set up as safe or safer???

As for fish ejecting hooks, i was under the impression that the fish can use the weight of a lead to help eject the hook, where as the drag of trailing mainline in the water (say 20ft) would not be concentrated in one place to gain momentum (via the fish shaking its head etc) to throw the hook but rather keep the hook in place????

Im not saying that i am right by any means, im just trying to work out the benefits and disadvantages to each set up and to keep teh subject open to debate, This could be a very good thread indeed :)

Zander carp can only use the weight of a lead to eject a hook before they are truely hooked.
Once properly hooked a weight of any type will keep the hook in place.
Carp can rid a hook without weight attatched especialy after a few days. :wink:

#17
zander1

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Cheers levigsp :)

#18
levigsp

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All the rigs we use should be safe rigs,however the way we use them can effect this.
Some people do not think or do not care how they use materials and in doing so they risk the lives of fish.
I think any rig that can definately dump the lead is the safer then one that cannot.
A running lead setup as Keith has pointed out should be very safe,as the runring can easerly clear the line on a break.
The chod style rig that I am in favour at certain times is also very safe,the lead can breakaway very easerly, the hooklink can easerly clear the line should it break.
If I am using one of my polyfused leaders they snap at 10lbs on the knots where they are joined to the swival or ring.
The only time I could have a problem is when I am casting extreme range, then I have no choice but to use 45lb bs leaders.
If that is the case then I make sure the lead can escape and the hooklink can slide off the leader.
But it is another reason why I sway in favour of bait boats for extreme range.

#19
noknot

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Thanks noknot.

I left the bead off as its less to get "trapped" on the rig :)

Moorsey, Is a leaderless heli not safer than a running rig with out a leader????

Think about it, if the running rig snaps, yes there will be no lead but there will be a length of mainline attached to the hooklink swivel... this could become snagged.
With the leaderless helicopter rig, if the line snaps the fish would just be left with a short hooklink that is a lot less likely to snag the fish up????
If the leaderless heli however tangles after it has snapped, the line left could snag up, but would be less likely to and is there for safer than a running rig :)

I haven't got enough experience behind me to say for sure ????????


Sorry, don't agree with your reasoning. If either rig snap at the hook link swivel the fish is left with just the hook link and swivel so both equally safe. However, if the line is cut let's say 20 yards from the hook link swivel, on the heli rig the hook link swivel must travel the full length of the 20 yards before it loses the lead. In this case the eye of the swivel is small enough to easily jam and leave the fish towing the lead. Also as I said above it is more likely that anglers will use some kind of leader if they are targetting big fish because of the guillotine effect of the swivel on the main line.
With the running rig it is normal to use a large ring as the running piece and these now also have a lead clip built in. I will accept that the fish could be trailing 20 yards of line but, in all of my experience, the carp can usually rid themselves of hooks as long as those hooks aren't being held in place by any weight.
In a real situation snaps are more likely to happen during casting or playing fish or pulling for a break against a snag. In all of these cases the break should happen at the hook link swivel.


Very good points Keith :)

So are we saying that both rigs are safe, however due to angler misuse or the loss of fish causing the angler to change to a leader, the heli setup is more dangerous????
The running rig setup is simpler in construction and harder to misuse as the leader will be less likely to be needed as ther cannot be a guillotine effect???
Perhaps a bead swivel could minimise the guillotine effect on the heli, coupled with a silicon sleeve to act as a buffer from the knot to the bead swivel as well as or a rubber bead??? Would this make the set up as safe or safer???

As for fish ejecting hooks, i was under the impression that the fish can use the weight of a lead to help eject the hook, where as the drag of trailing mainline in the water (say 20ft) would not be concentrated in one place to gain momentum (via the fish shaking its head etc) to throw the hook but rather keep the hook in place????

Im not saying that i am right by any means, im just trying to work out the benefits and disadvantages to each set up and to keep teh subject open to debate, This could be a very good thread indeed :)

Zander carp can only use the weight of a lead to eject a hook before they are truely hooked.
Once properly hooked a weight of any type will keep the hook in place.
Carp can rid a hook without weight atatched especialy after a few days. :wink:


Levi are you sure about that, bacause my rig "nails" them, to a point it's difficult to remove the hook?
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#20
levigsp

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Levi are you sure about that, bacause my rig "nails" them, to a point it's difficult to remove the hook?

I am 100% posative as I have done the experiments.
I wrote about this only the other day on this forum.
A hook can be so deeply embeded that It would cause dammage to get it out.
With no weight attatched it lossens after a while,hour or days depending on temps.
This happens because the fishes auto immune system kicks in and the start to form a callus round the hook,once this accures the hook will either be knocked/pulled out on weed, underwater obsticals etc or will fall out a while later with no help.
If there is any weight attatched it keeps digging the point of the hook in futher and further,and this stops the callus working on the hook and loosening its hold.
Same effect if the fish is tethered,the point is simply pulled home time and time again untill the fish dies.




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