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Semi-Fixed, Bolt or Running leads


salokcinnodrog
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Cos you hear so many people saying the slacker line the better, but i disagree with that.

 

 

I've struggled to get my head around that one as well...... Surely with an extra slack line there has to be a at least a good few inches of extra play before there is any shift of line over the alarm sensor system....

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Cos you hear so many people saying the slacker line the better, but i disagree with that.

 

 

I've struggled to get my head around that one as well...... Surely with an extra slack line there has to be a at least a good few inches of extra play before there is any shift of line over the alarm sensor system....

 

Exactly.

 

Like i said before Andy.....

 

surely there must come a point where there is too much slack line out to register a take quick enough?

 

I think there has definately got to be a balance between slack enough, and too much slack. And its finding that balance that you are happy with thats the difficult part.

 

Ive been trying slack line fishing recently with no success so far (but then again i havent had much out for a while anyway cos the lakes have been fishing badly, probably due to the crappy conditions at the moment). And the method i have been using is pulling off just enough slack line to let the mono hang vertically from the rod tip.

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I guess it's just personal preference Nick, but it's the rig I've had most of my best fish on, and you probably have more experience, but I prefer the helicopter rig, as, a lot of the lakes I fish are quite silty :wink:

 

Is it you have had more fish on therefore don't want to try to experiment?

Are you getting any single bleeps or unexplained dropped runs?

 

Same here about silty, but I've seen and received weird takes.

 

 

One of the waters I fish is a Silty Mere, and even on there with Silt Set-ups the takes are abnormal. I don't mind striking at single bleeps during the day, but at night?

The only way we can get takes is to use extremely long Hooklinks on Running leads and Pendant set-ups. On top of that the only place to get a take is to be on the second "shelf" where the carp move up to feed.

 

There gets to be the point that the Carp are so wary of the rigs on helicopters, why I don't know, as in theory it should work well.

 

I've actually lowred my rigs into the water on a particular lake and watched the fish take the bait on Running Leads, Inlines, Helicopters, and other semi-fixed set-ups. On all except the Running leads there was a delay in showing a take, on many occasions only 1 bleep and the Carp had blown the hook and rig out. It was then "marked" as unsafe and they refused that hookbait, even if additional bait was put in on top. This is a highly Pressured water where the largest Carp is maybe 20lbs.

 

Yet any Running rig with Leadcore, tubing or even bare line and the Carp could not deal with it and you got a proper run, as long as the line was slack.

 

Regarding slack lines, dificult to say. They don't work if there is a "cross" undertow, yet on an undertow directly towards or away from you then yes they work.

 

I set the line up tight, then gradually allow the line to slacken, and then have the indicator at maximum drop, no tension on it.

 

 

As for the Helicopter rigs, I'll have a play tomorrow (thursday) against running leads and see what comes out best.

 

Incidentally for any typos tonight, I've been friends with a few beers and a couple of shots, so its their fault :oops:

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OK, next time I go out fishing (may be a while :( ) I'll have a play with running rigs. I've used them before, but I didn't get anything on them, yet on the other rod (helicopter) I had 3 fish, so it may just be a confidence issue.

 

I can see the benefits though, such as being able to use completely slack lines, and the little resisance the fish feel, and the enhanced bite indication

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Right I had a play today with various set-ups, Lead clips, Running Leads, Helicopter and silt set-ups on a water that I knew would produce a few fish. The weather conditions were not ideal, North to North Westerly winds, gusting to 50mph with Cold Showers, maximum temperature during the day was 12degrees Celsius, but dropped as low as 6degrees.

 

All the actual end rigs, hooklinks were fished identically, the same PVA set-up, the same hook size and rig length. The rods were cast where I had seen fish showing, on an area that I know they feed on. I actually checked the rigs in the water. Yes I did get in to look on them in 4foot of water!

 

The Lead clip Semi-Fixed rig received no takes or positive indications at all.

 

The Running Lead rig with Slack Lines, produced 2 takes and 2 strikeable indications that produced 2 fish, only about 4lb, the indication was instant from the pick-up and were proper screamers. These takes occurred in Daylight.

 

The Helicopter/Silt rig, Ok, produced 1 take, the lead had moved 3metres before any indication was seen on the Hanger and any bleep was heard on the buzzer which was turned to as high a sensitivity as possible in such conditions. The fish was lost, and This take happened after the sun had gone below the horizon and what little light was left was gone. This take was a series of bleeps that the indicator merely twitched.

 

I fished 3 rods, all the rods were cast or placed in an area no more than 3 metres apart from end to end. Thus each rod had the same chance of a take.

 

Why should the Running Lead rod outfish the others? Its impossible to draw conclusions from today, the session and experiment time was too short

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Why should the Running Lead rod outfish the others? Its impossible to draw conclusions from today, the session and experiment time was too short

 

Nick, you dont half inspire people. Im tempted to hit our clubs runs water to try the exact same experiment between semi fixed pendant lead set ups and running rigs. I know running rigs should work better and catching a few and gaining confidence in the method will stand me in good stead while gutting it out on another water through winter :D

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yeah, I think it is just down to confidence, I personall have never caught a fish on a running rig, and I think this is why I have so much confidence in other methods. Willl try the running rig on a 'runs water' to try and inspire some confidence, as Tony said

 

The thing with Running rigs and a lack of confidence is, the same on any other rig, you have to put it in front of the Carp, or where they go to feed. Use a "provocative" Pop-up on the Helicopter/Silt rig, if its the only rig you use then its going to work. You won't remember the times it didn't. Yet use a Running Lead once or twice and get things wrong then you won't use them again, as you have lost confidence...

 

I have absolute confidence in Running Leads in all conditions.

 

First thing, if you have a crack/snap-off then the fish is not going to be towing a lead around. They are SAFE.

 

Second thing, Even if you want a Semi-Fixed set-up then you can use a Running Lead. Sounds wrong I know, but think about this, If you have a slack line then that allows the Lead to be Free Running. Tighten the line, the Lead is Semi-Fixed, by the tight line.

 

That then brings me back to the first reason above again, you have a Safe Fixed Lead set-up

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Why should the Running Lead rod outfish the others? Its impossible to draw conclusions from today, the session and experiment time was too short

 

Will be very interesting if you do this a few more times - pretty please

 

I'll try it again on Monday, different swim but same lake. Hopefully one where I don't have to get the waders out and stand in the water watching the fish take. It got darn cold standing out there yesterday!

 

I'll also add into the equation a shocker set-up, a basic running lead, but with a stop at a distance up the tubing or Leadcore

 

Incidentally I did try the Helicopter set-up on Leadcore and boy was that tangling. You could see the Leadcore twisting in flight and the retrieve was pulling the twists tight, so it may increase the chances of a snap off if you don't unravel or notice where kinks get formed.

 

I wasn't sure if it was just me having this problem, but I went back to Tim Paisleys book Big Carp to have a read and he had problems with Line Twist on his Helicopter set-up. This may have contributed to him losing a series of Big Fish on the take and during the fight where the line had twisted so badly.

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I wasn't sure if it was just me having this problem, but I went back to Tim Paisleys book Big Carp to have a read and he had problems with Line Twist on his Helicopter set-up. This may have contributed to him losing a series of Big Fish on the take and during the fight where the line had twisted so badly.

 

Damn good chapter as well. I think it was "Big Fish Summer" if my memory serves me right. Fantastic book as well.

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I wasn't sure if it was just me having this problem, but I went back to Tim Paisleys book Big Carp to have a read and he had problems with Line Twist on his Helicopter set-up. This may have contributed to him losing a series of Big Fish on the take and during the fight where the line had twisted so badly.

 

Damn good chapter as well. I think it was "Big Fish Summer" if my memory serves me right. Fantastic book as well.

 

Thats the one :D

 

Unfortunately what I had planned for today has gone to heck, my mate who I was going with is suffering from a severe Migraine, so fishing has gone out the window

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  • 3 weeks later...

This thread has been fascinating and very thought provoking. I normally use a lead clip but am going to try running leads when I go out this weekend.

 

I've started to use slack lines as well. It looks "wrong" as a tight line feels like it should show a bite quicker but there seems to be an overwhelming body of evidence that slack is better.

 

Did you manage to get back out and experiment again Nick?

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This thread has been fascinating and very thought provoking. I normally use a lead clip but am going to try running leads when I go out this weekend.

 

I've started to use slack lines as well. It looks "wrong" as a tight line feels like it should show a bite quicker but there seems to be an overwhelming body of evidence that slack is better.

 

Did you manage to get back out and experiment again Nick?

 

Not for a while, have had other more important things to deal with.

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Incidentally I did try the Helicopter set-up on Leadcore and boy was that tangling. You could see the Leadcore twisting in flight and the retrieve was pulling the twists tight, so it may increase the chances of a snap off if you don't unravel or notice where kinks get formed.

 

I wasn't sure if it was just me having this problem, but I went back to Tim Paisleys book Big Carp to have a read and he had problems with Line Twist on his Helicopter set-up. This may have contributed to him losing a series of Big Fish on the take and during the fight where the line had twisted so badly.

This might sound daft but try a spin doctor instead of a lead on your leadcore heli rig. Never tried it myself but it may help. :):)
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For those of you who fish Helicopter rigs in weed, heres a quote and a pic from Danny Fairbrass in his Korda Developments Advanced Rig Guide Book:

 

 

 

The Helicopter rig has been widely used for carp fishing in recent years but in weed it causes some severe problems. The Diagram (below) shows how a carp causes an acute angle on the line possible weakening it. The inline lead on the other had allows you to pull against the carp in a straight line maximising the strength of the rig.

Helicopter rigs also allow the hanging lead to catch in the weed, increasing the risk of a weeded fish. If the lead does get caught in weed you can end up pulling against the lead more than the carp, this gives the carp enough slack to get rid of the hook in a way only they know how!

Result, another lost fish.

Directpull.jpg

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Right played around again today while on my Runs water.

 

Had 4 takes, 3 on Helicopter/silt set-ups very tight line with a Pop-up. Landed 1 Common of about 8lb, and lost another to a hook pull. The Final Take was on a Running Lead and Bottom Bait set-up, but due to the undertow I had to fish a Tight Line, making the set-up Semi Fixed. I lost that fish to a hook pull as well.

 

Again, nothing conclusive and the wind and undertow meant I could not fish a proper Running Lead, so could not really compare.

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  • 1 month later...

Been thinking about this for ages, basically the thread has been giving me ideas to play with and disseminate.

Semi-fixed set-ups with a tight line

Silt set-ups with Helicopter rigs. Sorry for the scratchy diagrams, I was thinking and playing at the same time

Imagine this: You have a hooklink of 10centimetres, the travel that the hooklink is able to make from the lead landing to the stop above the hooklink is 10cms also.

How much movement can the fish make before there is any indication at the buzzer (indicator)?

The Carp has 10cm of rig, also 10cms of movement up and down the line from the bomb (or edge of silt) to the upper stop. Therefore the 10cm up and down the line, the 10cm of the link, to either side of the line makes 20cm alone, plus the allowed movement gives a massive area that the carp can move in until the lead (or rod tip) is felt. This allowed movement is a large area, arced at either end, now imagine that the Carp can sense that something is not right. The Bait that won't be ejected, or the pressure on the lip (I don't know what causes alarm, but lets just assume something doesn't feel right.

Helicopterarc.jpg

Within that area (green on the diagram) a carp can use the area to eject the hook . Trust me when I say that they can do it. How much indication would you get?

 

Now go to a Semi-fixed Lead as per the second diagram. The area of movement is less that the carp can go to without feeling the lead. In theory, less room for the carp to go without giving some indication

 

Then lets switch to the running lead with a slack line. Because the hooklink is not pulled tight to the lead, there is no restriction on movement for the hooklink. The Carp may not realise that there is danger in the hookbait. There is no tension holding the bait in the wrong place, thus giving more time to get some indication.

 

runninglead.jpg

 

Sorry if that seems basic, but I've been really trying to get my head around the need for Helicopter rigs other than for Extreme Distance fishing. To me they have little place in Carp Fishing. Lack of indication, lack of sensitivity, increased Line Twist (YES) and more movement for the carp to utilise to eject the hook.

 

I had one bite once which woke me up. The line didnt pull out of the reel, but the bobbin kept rising and falling about a inch, causing the alarm to bleep. this happend for about 2 min before i realised that my line had gone from the far left to the far right and had set my other alarms off by crossing the lines. The thing was swimming sideways!

 

Without the alarms warning me, i wouldn't have known i had a bite until the whole thing was a tangled mess in the middle of the lake. It wasn't the fact it was a small fish that couldn't pull the line out, this thing fought for about 10 mins

This brings me to another point that may happen with Semi-Fixed leads, and I have seen the same myself.

My Mate Phil who I used to fish with had a take at Taverham on a Semi-Fixed lead that came around in a perfect arc. The Swinger did not rise or fall, the Buzzer did not buzz. If we hadn't been watching the rod tip we would not have noticed the fish was on. The Carp was heading directly towards a snag along our margins at the exact same distance of where it was hooked.

 

This will not happen with a Running Lead as Line is almost guaranteed to be pulled through the Run Ring. The Lead will not move from the spot.

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  • 2 weeks later...

i`ve been following this thread closely and have found it really interesting but, as a carp fishing novice , i have a question to ask . i was going to start a new thread but since i found this one i think i`ll ask it here since i consider it to be related .

with the bolt/semi-fixed rig the fish (in theory) hooks itself but what is the coo with the afore mentioned running rig ? do you have to strike at the bite ? if so at which point do you chaps recommend the strike ?

sorry if i sound like an idiot :D , but as i said i`m learning all the time :wink:

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i`ve been following this thread closely and have found it really interesting but, as a carp fishing novice , i have a question to ask . i was going to start a new thread but since i found this one i think i`ll ask it here since i consider it to be related .

with the bolt/semi-fixed rig the fish (in theory) hooks itself but what is the coo with the afore mentioned running rig ? do you have to strike at the bite ? if so at which point do you chaps recommend the strike ?

sorry if i sound like an idiot :D , but as i said i`m learning all the time :wink:

 

Doesn't sound like being an idiot to me, it sounds like a pertinent question, and long may they continue.

 

With a Running Lead, yes you do have to strike, but I don't exactly know how to describe the strike or at what point. :?:shock:

 

What I found works for me with the strike is to switch the Anti-Reverse or Baitrunner off, wind down to the fish just reeling in the slack line and then lift the rod up to play the fish.

 

When it comes to what time to hit the run, I tend to play by ear. If a fish is taking line from 2or3 bleeps up to a series of bleeps then I grab the rod to strike.

 

With Striking the fish, I think that in many cases the hook works its way in more deeply as the fish is played as long as it in not bullied.

 

Would be interesting to see other views on that as well!

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thanks for that mate , yes i`d be interested to see what other people have to say on this subject (the strike that is) ......i`m going for a 24 hour session next weekend and was considering fishing one running rig and one semi-fixed . cant wait , should be flipping freezing :lol:

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morning all, thought id give my 2 pennys worth on the way i see this one:

 

Bolt/fixed rig- Gives awfull indication, for you to recieve and indication the fish MUST move the lead, anything on the hooklinkside wont show up simple as. however the bolt rig wasnt designed to give good indication it was designed to create a self hooking rig. once the carp have got used to this effect its a potentially useless setup.

 

Semi fixed- a bit of a hybrid the theory being the fish hooks its self and then gives you a good indication still leaves the same problem as a bolt rig that unless the fish hooks its self its useless.

 

full running rig- anymovement outside of the hooklink hemisphere ( if your hooklinks 5 inches the fish can move 5 inches in any direction without giving and indication) will give a good indication. incidentally ive found it very important to make sure your hooklinks lay straight with running rigs if its straight only movement towards the lead will not show indication where as if its all coiled up movement in any direction for the length of the hooklink will not show any indication.

This needs to be balanced out with the requirements of the hook and bait to make it into the carps mouth. if the fish approaches the bait from the hook side and isnt feeding with its mouth hard on the bottom a straightend hooklength wont allow the bait into the fishes mouth. Ive personally found a pva'd coil in a braid hooklink catches more than enough extra fish to outweigh the loss in indication. i did play with sliding hooklinks but they just dont slide freely enough under water.

 

Shocker rig- a semi fixed rig turned the right way around, you get excellent bite indication for a preset length of hooklink till the backstop hits the lead and then you get a self hooking effect if your not already on the rod. I use this rig for 99.9% of my fishing now and it outfishes everything ive used before. The fish find it exceptionally difficult to deal with even after a lot of use.

 

The only other variant ive used is a shocker rig with the lead held back from the hooklength swivel by a pva stopknot. its sensitive to big casts and your limited on range as using heavy indicator will pull the hook back towards the lead once the pva melts. Its ultra sensitive though as any movement shows on the indicators. ive used it for carp and tench and a few years ago for the uber wary ouse chub and perch and it did the job when i was blanking on everything else.

 

harry

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so , lets get this right then , ....a "shocker" rig is a running rig with a large shot or something , further up the main line ?

if so how far up the line ? also , can this be used in conjunction with ,say, a flying backlead ?

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