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johnplumb

Carp dietary requirements and digestive system

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nm - how about - mixing as you would normally, likewise as with the rolling - leave the boilies (misnomer) to air cure for 24, even 48 hours in a dry area and then freeze.

(If it were myself doing it, I may even look at rolling the almost cured balls in something like liver powder, garlic powder. I would even consider spirulina.)

The down side, I guess - you would have to take the 'dusting' powder into consideration with the main ingredients.

Freezing at this stage will not obviously denature/kill the enzymes, and the chances are, I imagine, that the sugars and salts would be doing their tango and foxtrot by now and visible on the skin. Perfect freezing time, imo, of course.

Strangely enough I tried this years ago, when Ball Pellets first hit the market, with my base mix. I tried exactly the same mix using water as the liquid and egg. Once skinned I rolled them in beaten egg again, more base mix powder, or Betaine.

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Nick, Turnip, Phil, Ross, Carpmachine and everyone else, I thank you for you contributions :)

In hindsight, Its looking like its just to hard to keep enzymes active in a normal fishing situation. I now would call into question the validity of some brands who have claimed to of harnessed such enzymes, unless of course they have stored them into some sort of temperature controlled environment (flask). Let the enzymes do there stuff before its starts to affect the outer shell of a bait and then quickly bought down the temperature and frozen. Which is what I suspect Nash have done. Just from a common sense way of thinking, I would think the baits are part heated, leaving the paste inside fir the enzymes to feed up on. The enzymes are applied once the baits are cooled enough, and kept in a temperature controlled environment until surface evidence is prevalent, then they are quickly frozen, so the enzymes lay dormant. At this stage the baits be part digested already, I would make one suggestion though, if you are using the Key, try putting a handful into and already warm flask, no where near boiling point though. About 40 degrees, this may reactivate the enzymes further, its something I am going to try :)

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Just to add

It would certainly explain the sticky substance on the exterior of the baits, it would explain why the bait is only available in frozen form, and it would explain the softness of the bait.

Plus its the only way I can think of producing a boilie like this in a large quantity for the masses.

 

What do you think fellas?

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I am guessing, if the enzymes were kept at an optimum heat, they would simply break the baits down into a mush. Which would be no good for sale purposes, I would of thought the company would only take the fermentation process so far and then stop it by freezing the bait. Enzymes aren't denatured by freezing, they are just dormant, and can be reactivated once brought up to temperature again, starting the process once again.

The thinking is, if a carp doesn't need to use its energy digesting then it can eat more of a substance, hence digesting a bait ourselves.

 

Thats my knowledge, not very scientific I know :)

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Ross - the magical number is 40 degrees. Not for all, as the range is between 40 and 60 degrees, but 40 is the starting point.

 

As for Nash, nm - they have just (relatively recently) spent £350'ish thousand on coming in to line with EU guidelines. Somewhere in amongst the vast amount of money will be a pressure cooker or a vacuum bath that doesn't quite get to 40 degrees, I imagine.

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Ross - the magical number is 40 degrees. Not for all, as the range is between 40 and 60 degrees, but 40 is the starting point.

 

As for Nash, nm - they have just (relatively recently) spent £350'ish thousand on coming in to line with EU guidelines. Somewhere in amongst the vast amount of money will be a pressure cooker or a vacuum bath that doesn't quite get to 40 degrees, I imagine.

Why a pressure cooker?
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that would take you down to near zero  absolute, it boils at - 197 degrees, out of the question buddy for the layman, it also destroys metal or tissues, they become so brittle you can smash them like china, the fools that pay a fortune for cryogenic suspension, popular in the states, are just crazy dreamers with too much money.

I've made ice cream with it and it was nice. I think there might be different grades but don't quote me on that.

Also I used to do work for a Bull stud and they used to freeze sperm with it for transportation.

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I have had a pot of 15, 16mm baits in a pot all night long, locked with the lid sealed. The were soaked in activated yeast last night for a couple of hours and then put straight into a spare pop up pot.

There seems to be white spots appearing on the surface of the baits.

I have now divided the baits into two pots now, one pot just sealed and left at room temperature, and the other I have placed on to a heated water bottle with a towel over the top to try and lock in some heat.

Hopefully ill see some difference by tomorrow :)

There are definite white spots appearing though

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Been reading this whole thread with much interest.

I've done loads and loads of experiments over the years on "Activating" baits and got some wild reactions by fish, but found it impossible to replicate the conditions each time. Best performing was to coat the baits after boiling, couldn't come up with an alternative solution for skinning that worked well enough.

 

nm, can I ask what yeast you are using for your experiments?

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Dried Active Yeast at the moment, although I feel I may get a better response with brewers yeast, im not even sure if yeast is the way forward, I am about to fish with baits soaked in tiger milk tonight, that had been left in a bucket in the sun for a few days, my thinking, these don't necessarily need an elevated heat level to ferment

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nm - the recipe you are using - are you adding any form of salt.

Would dropping the amount of Yeast be beneficial, or would it work against you?

Im not even sure if an active yeast is the way to go, looking at the enzymes involved, (a sudden morality check) I would much rather use substances that at least utilise some of the same enzymes carp use themselves. So im still looking, whats your thinking behind salt, I am waiting on a small bag of MSG turning up as it goes, :) Edited by nm01
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The only time I use salt is with chips or on the steps when it's snowing :mrgreen:

Many anglers use a lot of salt in a mix, and many a good debate has been held due to it. I personally don't like to use it. I have in the past, particularly Sea Salt that I ground-up, but I don't use it now. (not in a boilie mix, at least)

 

It may be a way for you to cure your boilie though, nm.

Roll your boilies, air dry them for an hour or so and then encase them in salt. I would use Rock/Sea salt (I wouldn't use table salt), but then you would also have to take into account the boilie taking on an amount of salt that you can't account for?. 

Edited by Turnip
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Dried Active Yeast at the moment, although I feel I may get a better response with brewers yeast, im not even sure if yeast is the way forward, I am about to fish with baits soaked in tiger milk tonight, that had been left in a bucket in the sun for a few days, my thinking, these don't necessarily need an elevated heat level to ferment

 

Got you.

If you want to pursue the yeast experiments a little further, I'd suggest you start looking at dedicated lager yeast. This strain of yeast (They are all, even bakers yeast, just different strains of Saccaromyces cerivisae, which is where the word for beer "Cervesa" comes from) will ferment right down to low temperatures (Lagering temps) so suits what you/we are looking to do really well.

It does prefer to ferment true malt sugars that have been converted by amylase, but will ferment pretty much any sugars with a little help. A very good nutrient for all yeasts is tomato puree, or even dead yeast cells (Marmite) so if you find it sluggish, or want things to get really interesting, give that a try and stand back! :wink:

 

By the way just to clarify, you can't truly "Ferment" something that has no sugar in it, as that is what yeast consume, and the particles we use for example will have very little available sugar until they have been cooked and the enzymes have consequently had chance to convert some of the starch.

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All very interesting, Turnip and Mooseman,I shall take a look, my bait are already catching me fish, so they are working, but due to the short sessions I do I think elevating the break down process may well help, but, and its a big but, I shall take a look at the enzymes involved,

Thanks again :)

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Ive just had a brain wave, instead of using raw eggs, I could use powdered egg, the only difference being the fat content, but I could use liquid glucose instead of water. Easy to make yourself, I usually do 2 parts sugar 1 part water, but that makes to thick a solution, I have made 1 part water to 1 part sugar, that pretty much has the same consistency of water, my thinking, the yeast will have sugar to feed on, all the way through the bait. :)

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Brilliant thread that I have missed some how, not much to add other than I tried to cure/dry some paste baits in salt and they went to mush, I didn't dry them before hand though and think the moisture just got sucked out and made the bait mushy... Also in my quest for a no egg firm paste I found this stuff for sale.... http://modernistcuisine.modernistpantry.com/products/instagel-cold-set-gelatin

 

I tend to look but not buy as my pennies don't allow much leyway to experiment

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On 29/05/2015 at 14:24, muftyboy said:

The theory that carp will reject a bait a bait after a while because it doesn't fulfill there dietary requirements doesn't wash with me, if that was the case then why have I caught more carp on bread then any other bait?

Sorry to pipe up but if you are a half decent angler you would know that bread is not good for them.

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5 hours ago, Yobbit84 said:

Sorry to pipe up but if you are a half decent angler you would know that bread is not good for them.

I think the point he made in 2015 was more about the fact he knows bread isn't that good for them, but that it keeps catching fish, and that they don't necessarily stop eating things that aren't good for them, 

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How does a carp know its dietary requirements and how does it make that decision when looking at a bait? In review of this entire thread, I believe the discussion has evolved, or devolved into a Da Vinci like cesspool of over thought. It would make sense to me that when you fish a venue, observe what the fish are eating, and replicate its natural food. Case in point: I made up a bait using the natural food in the lake and caught carp.

Any who, I do enjoy the challenge of creating (abstract) eats that carp like. I've taken a page from fly fishing: if the fish are eating mayflies, throw a mayfly. 

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52 minutes ago, NC Angler said:

How does a carp know its dietary requirements and how does it make that decision when looking at a bait? In review of this entire thread, I believe the discussion has evolved, or devolved into a Da Vinci like cesspool of over thought. It would make sense to me that when you fish a venue, observe what the fish are eating, and replicate its natural food. Case in point: I made up a bait using the natural food in the lake and caught carp.

Any who, I do enjoy the challenge of creating (abstract) eats that carp like. I've taken a page from fly fishing: if the fish are eating mayflies, throw a mayfly. 

Not so easy to throw a single daphne at a carp though is it if that's what they are munching on. Yes you can fill a boilie with daphne meal if you can get it but it's a round ball not a tiny plankton so nothing like what they are eating if it is daphne. 

Get a boilie that attracts the lakes naturals to it and you can certainly get yourself more bites. 

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