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One for you home made bait guys


chillfactor
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I purchased two big sacks of the mash the other day Nick looks interesting stuff tbh .... very versatile & cheap as chips. With not having the knowledge of some of you on here would the milk protein be the dearest ingredient in you mix above?

Thanks for the input 8)

That or the meat/fish meal.

 

I can check the price of SCA today

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I purchased two big sacks of the mash the other day Nick looks interesting stuff tbh .... very versatile & cheap as chips. With not having the knowledge of some of you on here would the milk protein be the dearest ingredient in you mix above?

 

Thanks for the input 8)

 

Nice to know you are "Seeing the light" Phil...  :lol:  The stuff has soooo many uses...

 

I personally wouldn't put that much importance on milks, I dropped it out of my baits a long time ago (Apart from calf/lamb replacers) with no apparent detriment to the bait and clearly none to the fish as I was providing far more "Available" proteins from fish sources.

 

Nice Common by the way mate, lovely proportions and a nice big head on her!

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I personally wouldn't put that much importance on milks, I dropped it out of my baits a long time ago (Apart from calf/lamb replacers) with no apparent detriment to the bait and clearly none to the fish as I was providing far more "Available" proteins from fish sources.

 

Glad im not alone with this line of thought, this is a personal opinion but as stated I think calf/lamb replacers play apart in the overall taste side of a bait especially in the case of fishmeals

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Hutch I too think that replacers have a part to play in taste or palatability but my own personal opinion is that they are more important from a high solubility point of view, as the tests I've done prove that when dissolved into water, carp are stimulated by them.

Is this due to the high Lactose content? Not sure but I have a feeling it is likely. Interestingly, Lactose is NOT fermentable by normal (Saccharomyces) yeast strains...

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as the tests I've done prove that when dissolved into water, carp are stimulated by them.

 

Interesting sort of backs up a story on the carp cast where Jamie dropped some dairy ice cream in the carp pond and the carp seemed to respond from a good 20 yards away.

 

 

 

Is this due to the high Lactose content? Not sure but I have a feeling it is likely. Interestingly, Lactose is NOT fermentable by normal (Saccharomyces) yeast strains...

 

I don't honestly know enough to comment on this there seem to arguments for and against lactose and how detectable it is by the fish

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Glad im not alone with this line of thought, this is a personal opinion but as stated I think calf/lamb replacers play apart in the overall taste side of a bait especially in the case of fishmeals

I have thought for a long time that a milk protein bait (milk being the only intended protein source), is not as easy to digest or is as useable as other animal proteins, unless you add an additional milk digesting enzyme, as per the original tests with Hi-Nu-Val and trypsin, which later became the Addits.

 

 

In winter, carp can still digest and use the vegetable proteins that are available in

Layers, and at a low level an animal protein. While we all aim for a protein content around 35%, i am starting to think such a high level may not be needed, so 16% could be about right.

 

Fishmeals will work in winter, but at a low level use in baits. It could be the oils that are present in fish meals that reduces their effectiveness, as we know that oils congeal and won't release, yet in summer they will.

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Oh I see well at least I learnt something new [emoji16]

 

That's what we're all here for bud!

Some sharp brains on this forum that are well worth picking!  :wink:

 

Just a wild stab in the dark

Could it be the calorie aspect?

 

How do you mean Gaz, just that it's a stimulant because it is calorie dense?

 

I can see how it would add food value to a bait for this reason, but can't see how it can be a stimulant just because it's high in calories.

 

Or am I misunderstanding what you mean?

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That's what we're all here for bud!

Some sharp brains on this forum that are well worth picking! :wink:

 

 

How do you mean Gaz, just that it's a stimulant because it is calorie dense?

 

I can see how it would add food value to a bait for this reason, but can't see how it can be a stimulant just because it's high in calories.

 

Or am I misunderstanding what you mean?

Looking at how fish feed in a more primitive manner, they as well as we are all wired to source calories. These calories are needed to replace the energy used looking for them.

Yes, there are some amino's that fish are attracted to but I think these are primarily the sweet ones, alanine, glycine, proline and serine.

The calorie theory does make sense of a lot of things when you look at bait from outside of the box.

Optimum Feed Efficiency, every animal/fish are mainly driven by and will route out high calorie substances.

It explains why tigers are so appealing, yet offer very little in the way of nutrition. Yes to us tigers are very nutritious but we fully absorb the content unlike fish.

This is just speculation on my behalf, but thinking about this, I did talk to Simon Scott who reiterated the point about fish being driven by calories.

Maybe somewhere along the road we have all over thought the amino profile and protein content. That's not to say from a moral stance, we shouldn't provide the best nutritious food we can, but as an acttractor, that first spike of interest, that trigger, what ever you want to call it, in a more primitive meaning, high calorific food will always attract fish because that's what they are hard wired to do. :)

 

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Just to add to the above post

 

Why are carp so interested in eating peanuts, and eat them with such gusto, yet too many are dangerous?

 

Why were the carp in the story of Mr Clossick's experience so attracted to a blob of ice cream?

 

Why were carp successfully poisoned with artificially laced pellets?

 

Why do so many simpler forms of bait work?

ie sweetcorn, marshmallows, cheese, luncheon meat, chick peas and all manner of food.

 

I've looked at all I can and it all points towards the calorie theory :)

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Got you, and I do agree with most of what you say.

At the risk of repeating myself (And others) Carp like any other wild animal will for the majority of the time make the most of the easiest available food source for the least energy expenditure, so yes your theory does stack up in regards to high calorie foods being something that they will want to eat, but would these food items act as attractors?

 

I do actually believe that there is far more to sugars and energy sources in carp baits than is given credit, whereas protein/amino acids are given centre stage.

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I agree, sugar's and lipids ie fats are all high in calories.

Just so you all understand, I'm not trying to disprove all of your efforts as regards to the construction of boilies, I am just looking at the wider picture and looking at other species, water or land.

It's why I always favoured glycerol based flavours, it's another reason why I mentioned a while ago, the whole attractor package has to smell and taste right to me.

Using sweet liquid flavours, powders and food sources have to blend together to give an overall attractor package.

It's another reason why I think lactose and fructose are so attractive.

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It's mainly through research and talking to others, views change through a process of learning I suppose.

I'm not saying that amino's aren't important but as mooseman said they do tend to take centre stage.

I've just learned to look at the bigger picture a bit more and keep an open mind.

There's a lot of fores and againsts on all fishy matters, especially baits.

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I have thought for a long time that a milk protein bait (milk being the only intended protein source), is not as easy to digest or is as useable as other animal proteins, unless you add an additional milk digesting enzyme, as per the original tests with Hi-Nu-Val and trypsin, which later became the Addits.

 

 

In winter, carp can still digest and use the vegetable proteins that are available in

Layers, and at a low level an animal protein. While we all aim for a protein content around 35%, i am starting to think such a high level may not be needed, so 16% could be about right.

 

Fishmeals will work in winter, but at a low level use in baits. It could be the oils that are present in fish meals that reduces their effectiveness, as we know that oils congeal and won't release, yet in summer they will.

 

Going back to something Nick said earlier in the thread, above.

Carp may "Think" (Or whatever cognitive process constitutes thinking, in a fishy brain!) that food items are going to provide them with an easily absorbed hit of calories, but lacking a true stomach they may get very little at all from what they have decided to ingest even though it is food. (There is a good reason they are willing to eat each others' poop, it is in effect partially pre-digested!)

 

The way I understand it, a lot of the complex carbs/starch that we put into bait are not going to provide much in the way of energy to a carp, as they do not have the enzymatic action in their body (Which we do for the most part) required to convert a great deal of it to simple sugars...

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That's why I've started using a soup/mush derived from stuff I know carp find attractive.

Plus, I must admit to thinking about the amount we carp anglers put in, in the way of solid items.

For instance

A kilo of 15mm boilies is roughly 500 to 600 baits.

Again thinking from the outside

What are the chances of your hookbait being picked up?

To me that's banking on getting a number of fish feeding.

Plus, freeing these amino's, stimulants and attractors.

To me these items stay locked in a boilie for longer periods, which doesn't really suit my short sessions.

So I've set about making a soup, up, lots and lots of attraction but very little in the way of actual food laying on the lake bed.

More of a thin layer, a film of bait.

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