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dalthegooner

A little bit of good news with regards to otters.

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Copied and pasted from Korda:

 

Angling groups and the UK Wild Otters Trust have secured the first licence in England for the humane removal of otters which become trapped inside fenced fisheries. Currently without such a licence it is illegal to interfere with them, but now it will be possible to relocate them, with Embryo Angling helping towards the cost of doing so in some cases where the club or fishery has no funds. Full details here: Clicky

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So if the fishery has spent thousands on fencing and the damned Otters STILL get in then the fishery owners are allowed to remove them ?

 

That's jolly big of them Dal .

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I think it's a step in the right direction, we have an organisation willing to fight our corner and protect what we love doing, yet you moan about any steps taken. Typical of the apathetic attitude from anglers, nothing short of ungrateful. From what I believe, an achievement like this is a major step forward, a foot in the door which I presume will not stop here, especially when you consider what they are up against, oh yeah, plus they don't get paid for the work they do, never mind the thousands of pounds donated by certain tackle companies to drive these legal pursuits forward.

 

It's a shame we live in a world of scepticism and don't appreciate others for their hard work.

Edited by Gazlaaar

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I think it's a step in the right direction, we have an organisation willing to fight our corner and protect what we love doing, yet you moan about any steps taken. Typical of the apathetic attitude from anglers, nothing short of ungrateful. From what I believe, an achievement like this is a major step forward, a foot in the door which I presume will not stop here, especially when you consider what they are up against, oh yeah, plus they don't get paid for the work they do, never mind the thousands of pounds donated by certain tackle companies to drive these legal pursuits forward.

 

It's a shame we live in a world of scepticism and don't appreciate others for their hard work.

Thing is Gal , it only rewards fishery owners that have dug deep already to protect their fisheries from the furry ''kers in an effort equals reward kind of thing.

What about the Angling clubs that can't afford to fence their lakes in ?

They are still powerless .

 

And Uncle Danny gets another pat on the back.

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Apathetic is the opposite of this. It's not the fight I have an issue with it's this particular "step" being seen as a positive. Let me explain.

 

What has been agreed is that IF a lake already has an otter fence, but an otter gets in nonetheless, that specially trained people, funded by the PAG, are now able to buy a license, to humanely move the otter to the other side of the fence.

 

Firstly people with an otter fence won't automatically go and get this license, as they have a fence. If an otter gets in, by the time they've crawled through the red tape and requirements they'll have no fish left anyway.

To get this license you must be trained, which is funded by the PAG. Funds that should be used to further the cause for being able to use lethal methods to control otters will now be used to train those who already have fences in place to remove an otter from their lake, and release it into an area where there are fish in lakes without fences for it to eat.

In any future discussion it is likely that "we've already given you a license to remove otters, which you were happy with, get a fence." Will be used by wildlife Britain to justify why the door to any further negotiations will be slammed in the face of the Angling Trust.

 

This only helps people who have fences already, but fail to use them properly or maintain them, or the odd freak occurrence where they don't work, and it helps them to the detriment of every lake, river, drain, and canal that it is impossible to fence.

 

Does this really sound like a good step?

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Uncle Danny deserves a pat on the back, he has financially supported the PAG for years out if his own pocket. There's not many more like him around and there really needs to be.

When you understand the effort needed to even think about approaching Natural England then you'd understand the work undertaken. These guys don't get paid for this, they take it upon themselves to do something.

Plus it has to be done in the right way, the legal way, albeit the frustrating way.

If they approached it all guns blazing, Natural England would just shut the doors on the angling community.

It would almost be like a court case, images, testimonials, evidence would need to be collected, collaborated and then prvoided as evidence. It's not just a simple case of, "alright my love, we don't like otters because of this is that"

Discussions have to be carefully planned for and put together by the right people and let's not forget, Funded.

 

We should all be applauding their efforts and we should all be pleased we have such passionate people supporting us.

 

To be derogatory about their efforts is just uninformed opinion at best.

 

We now have a foot in the proverbial door, it's not an ideal situation for all, granted, but it's a start.

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Uncle Danny deserves a pat on the back, he has financially supported the PAG for years out if his own pocket. There's not many more like him around and there really needs to be.

When you understand the effort needed to even think about approaching Natural England then you'd understand the work undertaken. These guys don't get paid for this, they take it upon themselves to do something.

Plus it has to be done in the right way, the legal way, albeit the frustrating way.

If they approached it all guns blazing, Natural England would just shut the doors on the angling community.

It would almost be like a court case, images, testimonials, evidence would need to be collected, collaborated and then prvoided as evidence. It's not just a simple case of, "alright my love, we don't like otters because of this is that"

Discussions have to be carefully planned for and put together by the right people and let's not forget, Funded.

 

We should all be applauding their efforts and we should all be pleased we have such passionate people supporting us.

 

To be derogatory about their efforts is just uninformed opinion at best.

 

We now have a foot in the proverbial door, it's not an ideal situation for all, granted, but it's a start.

Ok . Uninformed opinion . Fair enough . But as Adam says above , you are head of the Embryo.

What's your next step ?

Edited by newmarket

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I think it's a step in the right direction, we have an organisation willing to fight our corner and protect what we love doing, yet you moan about any steps taken. Typical of the apathetic attitude from anglers, nothing short of ungrateful. From what I believe, an achievement like this is a major step forward, a foot in the door which I presume will not stop here, especially when you consider what they are up against, oh yeah, plus they don't get paid for the work they do, never mind the thousands of pounds donated by certain tackle companies to drive these legal pursuits forward.

 

It's a shame we live in a world of scepticism and don't appreciate others for their hard work.

Surely you can't be for real. For years and years there people who have fought are corner that's true and many appreciate the PAG ect but the people with the power I have anything but gratitude to them. After all the money spent and the years of destruction at the jaws of otters we have faced, you think people should be grateful that now 1% of uk fisheries now have some protection. Presumebly haveing years of problems. Most don't put fences up until after an otter has caused problems. Even when these fisheries have jumped threw the hoops getting licence while the otters are still destroying the lakes the problem isn't solved its just moved on someware else.

How would you feel if becauase of a fenced fishery ware the owners havnt erected or maintained there fence properly get a licence ,get the problem otter removed. The said otter then gets re located a few miles from a lake you fish this lake you fish is one of the 99% in Britain that isn't fenced you turn up and there a few fish been otterd. Within a week half the stock is decimated I'm pretty sure your gratefullness would be replaced by anger. The reason why the powers that be have chosen this route is so the impact on otters is pretty much zero but there seen to be doing something at least by people who don't see the problems that re locating an apex territorial predator could bring to the local and surrounding areas, areas that already have otter problems may well end up seeing problems increase. The fenced fisheries that have otters removed will soon have problems again because anouther will move in and take its place. They will be going around in circles. While messing up nature even more than they already have by releasing naturally unstainble numbers of hand rered territorial carp killing machienes willy nilly there now going to move them about in an way that they wouldn't do naturally. its crazy. but hey if your gratefull the ploy obviously worked.

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Uncle Danny deserves a pat on the back, he has financially supported the PAG for years out if his own pocket. There's not many more like him around and there really needs to be.

 

We should all be applauding their efforts and we should all be pleased we have such passionate people supporting us.

To be derogatory about their efforts is just uninformed opinion at best.

We now have a foot in the proverbial door, it's not an ideal situation for all, granted, but it's a start.

Couldn't agree more about Danny Fairbrass. He's done more for angling than most know, and still gets a kicking.

 

I aplaud all efforts by the PAG. Definitely pleased to have people fighting this cause! Where do I sign up!?!

 

Not being derogatory about their efforts, only accepting this compromise and publicising it as a step. It's not. Seeing it in this light is where your uninformed opinion comes in, and the people going through all the proper and legal channels with this should know better.

 

You're aware that before this "step" a lake that has a fence, if an otter gets in, legally they have to sit there and watch it eat it's way through be the stock of the lake, unable to affect or influence it's behaviour in any way, ignoring that it's trapped inside an otter fence designed to keep it out! And now we're allowed to pay to move it onto some other poor blokes lake! Thanks!

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We aren't in a good situation but you have to remember, these otters haven't been put there by the people fighting our corner. Any step they make should be applauded and encouraged.

 

Like I said it's not a faultless situation and the only solution I can see that would work is giving Fishery Owners the right to defend their livelihood and stock.

 

I'm not asking you to be grateful to Natural England, I'm asking you to think of the monumentus effort made by the people who support us and the small strives forward they make.

 

You all come up with problems but not one of you have a legitimate solution, imagine what it's like for the guys fighting for us.

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I'm not asking you to be grateful to Natural England, I'm asking you to think of the monumentus effort made by the people who support us and the small strives forward they make.

 

You all come up with problems but not one of you have a legitimate solution, imagine what it's like for the guys fighting for us.

Yes. The first bit, Very true.

 

Here's a legitimate solution. Fishery owners are allowed the option to obtain a license to control predators affecting their livelihood using lethal means if nessesary. Simple. The game keepers already have this facility to control protected birds of prey.

 

Another thing that hasn't been brought up as it's still pipeline, since Scottish game keepers have been allowed special license to control protected buzzards from wiping out their pheasants and ruining their livelihood, test cases have been brought and won involving similar situations involving other predators. Now THIS is a step in the right direction.

 

I truly believe that the "otter removal" thing weve been discussing is simply a diversionary tactic by natural England in response to the fact that we're getting close to a legal breakthrough that could really help. A small concession by them now, if accepted as such by the Angling Trust, would hurt future efforts for fishery owners to be allowed the same rights to protect their livestock as game keepers have, and this is the ultimate goal.

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It's not about legal terms Gaz .... it's purely down to numbers as Adams buzzard case proves , I counted 40 + Buzzards in my field the other day if this is the same up & down the country then no wonder they have allowed a licence to shoot a few .

 

The same will happen to the otter eventually but sadly it will be far to late for many a fishery & river .

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I don't believe in any diversionary tactics, I've said many times, just give fishery owners the same rights as farmers. Such an easy solution but so far from our grasp, but I do unaquivocally believe this what we are heading for. It takes time in legal terms though.

It's took years to get to a stage ware you can get a licence to move the problem someware else. If you beleive that fisheries will be at the point ware otters can be legally killed to protect fish stocks your deluded. if you think this is a stepping stone to that point your imo wrong. Alot of the meres rivers canals and lakes that can't be fenced the natural low stock dare I say proper lakes havnt got years for many it's to late already. Do gooders can't see past the cute and cudderly appearance of otters and dont realize and don't even care that in there current numbers they are not naturally sustainable. They think it's apceptable for lakes to supplement the otters diet that's a sacrifice there more than willing to make. Sadly we live in a country that's run by the do gooders so the law will never go against there wishes. There only one way to deal with otters and that means breaking the law. It's the only answer and that won't change. The law will never back the use of lethal force against otters. I don't beleive in culling otters but the numbers need to be at a level well below what they are at moment. Trying to that the legal way is sadly the road to nowhere.

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Im under no illusion that we have problems and it will escalate before anything substantial is done, at least a few have taken it upon themselves to try and gain ground in a legal and political way, I just think they deserve a little appreciation for their efforts.

Edited by Gazlaaar

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We'll just have to agree to disagree Liam, I appreciate and understand your thoughts but I'm also a believer in our guys fighting our corner.

Mate I massively support what the PAG do and have massive respect for the likes of Rob Hughes, Tim paisley and all the guys and girls at the PAG that try to make a difference. Ater all the evidence, money and hard work they have put in all they get is this scheme that potentially going to make things worse. This is what I have an issue with the PAG have fought tooth and nail made the best case possible but when your dealing with the type of people they have deal with your banging your head against a wall. They won't except what your saying they will just chuck you a scrap here and there that makes no real difference. You seem to have much more faith than I do that the system will make things right but from what I've seen of politics in my time on this earth going down the legal route with Natural England and getting political, will get us absolutely noware.

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I know Liam and I usually disagree vehemently, but on this one I think he may well be right.

I know a number of fisheries and bailiffs that used lethal force in dealing with cormorants and have done so with otters.

 

One local bailiff in Suffolk dealt very effectively with otters on his fishery, as it is not able to be completely fenced.

The main lake can't be fenced, there is a golf course on one bank, and the river bank has been fenced, but has an overflow or feeder stream which is flowing into or out of another lake.

 

The big problem may not be otters themselves, but the 'do gooders' or the town greenies who have never been into the country who think otters are cute and cuddly, and politicians who represent these people. Many many policies are pushed through without care of the country people or real research, an example is our power stations, or disposal of rubbish.

Some Green Party people for example consider it ok to bury our rubbish in landfill, yet will not consider incineration. Incinerating and using rubbish to fuel power stations would work, the technology is there for it to be environmentally safe, yet it is rarely considered, instead we have these wind turbines, which actually use more energy to make than they will ever produce. Every wind turbine needs a connection to the grid, whereas a gas or rubbish fuelled power station which powers multiple turbines only needs one connection.

 

Until we have more bodies like Angling Trust and Predation Action Group fighting our corner, then we could well struggle showing the problems that things like otters are doing to our wildlife. In fact it may well be the RSPB who helped get the otter problem noticed as some Nature reserves where otters were wiping out rare wild birds became a high profile cause.

 

 

 

It's took years to get to a stage ware you can get a licence to move the problem someware else. If you beleive that fisheries will be at the point ware otters can be legally killed to protect fish stocks your deluded. if you think this is a stepping stone to that point your imo wrong. Alot of the meres rivers canals and lakes that can't be fenced the natural low stock dare I say proper lakes havnt got years for many it's to late already. Do gooders can't see past the cute and cudderly appearance of otters and dont realize and don't even care that in there current numbers they are not naturally sustainable. They think it's apceptable for lakes to supplement the otters diet that's a sacrifice there more than willing to make. Sadly we live in a country that's run by the do gooders so the law will never go against there wishes. There only one way to deal with otters and that means breaking the law. It's the only answer and that won't change. The law will never back the use of lethal force against otters. I don't beleive in culling otters but the numbers need to be at a level well below what they are at moment. Trying to that the legal way is sadly the road to nowhere.

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When they move these otters to a new location they won't look into issues that that paticular otter may cause for other lakes. They will only look at what's in the best interest of the otter. I hope there going to make it public ware these otters are going to be re locoated to because for me that's the big question. Whare are these otters going to go because non of us want these otters re located near us u wouldn't have thought. They are going to have be released someware. The question we all need to be asking is where?

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I may have read  or missunderstood this , but you will have to PAY for a licence then PAY for someone to remove the Otter from your fishery, yes or no

Kind of. As a fishery owner you can apply for the license, which will cost you money. To be eligible for the license you have to be trained, which again needs paying for. So yeah, some people are making some money out of this. The PAG have said that they will offer some funding to assist in the costs of the training. Wonder who will provide this training, natural England? So they've found a way to be funded in part by the PAG! It's all so frustratingly rubbish.

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