Jump to content
Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Dicky123

Why expensive boilies are a con.

Recommended Posts

With the new Nash bait costing a small fortune, are expensive baits worth the money? Before I get any replies, PLEASE read what I'm actually saying, and what I'm NOT saying, they are just my humble views.

The bait claims are amazing, the field test outstanding. Right. The carp love it so much they look for it?

90% of my fishing is short sessions stalking. I use a high attract bait, and particles. But still I buy between 10/20 kilo of boilie a year. £7 is a much as I'll ever pay and this is why?

If I eat an apple I know it's good for me, I cannot tell you when it's going to do me good (but all research tells me it is) but as part of a balanced diet it should. If a carp eats a quality bait it also should do it good, but the carp DOES NOT KNOW this. It eats because its food, tastes good and is available. If that's a cheaper bait it will eat it all the same, if it's high attract it will also find it sooner. A carp eats all sorts of stinky winky in a day, some is more good for it than other, but if it's easy available so much the better.

We all know in the long term a quality bait should help a carp grow, but in truth it would have to eat a very large amount to do so. Years ago I'm sure this did happen. People made good baits at home and baited in quantity. They would establish a bait on a water as everyone used similar ingrediants, the fish would benefit from this. But today all sorts of bait is going in, both cheap and expensive, so the fish pick up a boilie not knowing if it's going to do it good or not. Sweet corn is still a highly effective bait, and is very low in quality, but carp simply love the stuff? If I cannot tell when that apple is going to do me good, how does a carp know about that boilie? It doesn't.

If you buy into a £13 a kilo bait, I'm pleased because your helping those fish stay healthy and grow.

But what if it's a super rich water with just a handful of carp in it?  On another carp forum they were talking about some baits not working on some waters, despite knowing the bait was good quality. Why was this? I could offer an educated guess but thats not the point. That bait was wasted on those fish. In an overstocked water a high quality bait will work, but so would a high attract cheaper bait, unless that water was a syndicate you fish all the time is a high quality bait worth putting in? If you have a vested interest in those fish growing on I'd suggest maybe, it depends on your income/situation.

These days the average carp guy gets out maybe once a week if he's lucky. He will use a kilo or so of bait if he's average. Will that establish a bait, unlikly. Will he catch more fish with a cheaper bait, who knows?

I do know application is far more important than any expensive bait.

I for one will not give the likes of Nash £13 of my hard earned money, when I have know idea if that bait will make any difference to my catch rate.  I'd prefer to buy 10 kilo of a mixture of high attract baits so I can mix and match on any day. That will cost me no more than £60/70 and boy thats enough.

Obviously these thought's are just my own. In 50 years carp fishing I've seen both the good and the bad in the ever moving trend of carp fishing. But I would dearly love to hear what you all think about it paying £13 a kilo for the latest bait trend?

Dicky.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tbh Dicky think most anglers  pay 6-7 £ a kilo for quality bait  , dont know anyone using the nash key bait & that includes all the anglers I know via fb etc .

The only catch  has reports on the key seem to come from anglers who either work for nash direct or get the bait cheap . Says a lot & that most anglers won't pay it either. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

one thing to remember is that there is a markup on products. Tackle shops take their cut. Unless you order Bulk you can't buy direct from the likes of Nash, mainline, sticky, etc. Then you have ccmoore who still sell a kilo at £10+ on their website. Why? Because they can't undercut the tackle shops who stock them. 

Those baits are made in such large quantities they really only cost £2 a kilo to produce. The rest is profits and on costs. 

As said a quality bait from a company who doesn't sell to shops can be had for £7 a kilo. Luckily I get mine for £5 because I test for the company. 

Im the average, once a week, one kilo a session angler. I bait up midweek and fish the weekend. I'm on a low stock, relatively unfished water at the minute and 2 kilo a week is enough (plus 10kg particle). 

Fish do know what's good for them. A long term bait will see them eating it over and over. Why do you you hear the 'it just swam straight past my bait' line regularly? Most likely it's a poor bait they have encountered before. These carp ain't as stupid as we think. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have no scientific background or anything like it.....but.....heres my thoughts.

 

I use nash 4g, not the same price as the key or new nash scopex squid, ive always used nash squid baits and they have done me very well. Its more a confidence think so i dont mind spending a bit more, but confidence is built on success.

 

I was having a chat with my brother recently, regarding the high impact/attract boiles v a good food source boilie. In my head/opinion high impact baits are great for day session, even 24 hours ones, they have higher amounts of flavor and in my opinion will get you a faster bite. I dont do days or short sessions myself, the type of sessions me and mates/family do are a min of 48 hours, for this i like to think a decent food source boilie is far better, in fact id go as far to say i know it is (just my opinion of course). This is based on results, Not blowing my trumpet but i out fish the other guys most of the time, my swim takes a little longer to come to life but once it does the size and amount of fish soon exceeds the others im fishing with.

 

I have often asked myself why this is, and the only answer i can come with is a good bait. Im not going to state that i know exactly whats in my boilie, in part i am just going on price, which may make me a fool. But i know my boilies are not as strong smelling or coloured (normally) than the others i fish with, most are using high impact baits that cost less. This is where my opinion comes into play lol. I am a firm believer in the fact that most animals will actively seek out a better food source. Whether it be a carp or dog ect. How it does this, im not going to speculate, but if i offer my dog a cheap pound land treat over a pedigree chum one i know which she will take first every time. I think carp are the same, ill go further and say that once they have had a bit of a decent bait they will be back for more. Carp arnt stupid but they also cant pop into a fast food restaurant and choose a specific burger with their fav relish, i think its more on a subconscious/basic instinct level. I know i could catch a fish on a scented wooden ball, or a basic 50/50 mix with lots of flovour, but i dont think that carp will actively seek out that specific bait again, not because its actually thinking about it but because its basic instinct is to find something more nourishing, something that includes a few basic ingredients that will be of use to it in some way. The guys i fish with have tried every cheaper boilie they can get their hands on, but none have fished anywhere near as well a decent bait. 

 

To sum it up, i do believe carp will eat anything that looks/smells remotely interesting to them, whether that be a basic 50/50 mix boilie or a good one. but i also believe that a boilie containing stuff that the carp can actually benefit from/use will keep them coming back for more, in my own experience i have seen this over and over. I would use a high impact boilie on a very short session for a quick bite, even over the top of my chosen bait for the first 24 hours of a longer session, but for me a more nutritious and yes, more expensive bait wins every time and has proven its worth over the years. The main staple of my fishing is building swims over days, but if i was after a quick bite then obviously the higher attract boiles would be my choice. I think both high attract and food source baits have their place in fishing. As with most things in carp fishing its all about preference.

 

Im not saying that a bait has to be over £10 a kg to work, Im sure there are some very good cheaper baits out there that are just as nutritious as the bait i pay a lot for, but on the same argument there are many people selling cheap baits that are just stinky winky and have no nutritional value even though they claim to have lots, ive been done before and will stick with what i know works for me personally. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, carpmachine said:

Good luck buddy, you will learn, hope it dont cost you to much in the mean time, keep eating the lettuce sanswiches, we know whats good for us, scientists tell us daily, me, chicken vindaloo and pints of beer, carp are different, are they.

No lettuce for me CM, a nice kebab and bottle of coke wins every time lol. Im only going on what works for me, the lads i fish with have almost identical set ups, for now the only thing i can say is different is bait. I get to choose a kebab over a lettuce sandwich, in my brain i know whats better for me, but i dont think carp are that clever, as said i think its more instict kind of thing. My brother often fishes next to me, often identical rigs, he has a bite or 2, but nothing like what i get when things go right over a few days. More than once ive caught the same fish twice over a session. In my head its coz they have had a food source bait with benificial ingredients and are driven to eat more of it over the lower nutrition baits my brother is using in the next swim. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keeno, Kreek.

Kreek, you last paragraph could simply mean the application is not good enough and not the bait? I simply dont believe they will swim over a bait, just because it has poor quality inside, how will it know unless it eats it.  When it eats it how does in know that bait will do it any good. 

Kenno. I'd guess the longer sessions you fish are the critical factor involved in you catching better than sum. You would have to know exactly how long others fished, in what swim, with how many rods etc to make a proper comparison, it's impossible to say it's down to bait, I just think that's falling for the hype myself.. Simply your application could be better than those around you? When you say they keep coming back for more, how does that work. How do they decided your bait is better than Fred's next door. He could also be on a expensive bait too,  but Fred does not catch and you do!. How can a carp pick one bait from another?

I come back to the apple. If a carp eats a bait, how does it know that bait is better for it, when the results of that food will not be evident for some time, maybe months. 

If we humans cannot tell if an apple is doing us good, how does a carp tell a bait is doing it good unless it eats it?  Even then, if enough anglers use a cheaper bait along side those on expensive baits, how does the carp tell what one is doing it good?

No offence to anyone, I just enjoy banter and would buy you a pint in the pub to argue over.

Dicky.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dicky123 said:

Keeno, Kreek.

Kreek, you last paragraph could simply mean the application is not good enough and not the bait? I simply dont believe they will swim over a bait, just because it has poor quality inside, how will it know unless it eats it.  When it eats it how does in know that bait will do it any good. 

Kenno. I'd guess the longer sessions you fish are the critical factor involved in you catching better than sum. You would have to know exactly how long others fished, in what swim, with how many rods etc to make a proper comparison, it's impossible to say it's down to bait, I just think that's falling for the hype myself.. Simply your application could be better than those around you? When you say they keep coming back for more, how does that work. How do they decided your bait is better than Fred's next door. He could also be on a expensive bait too,  but Fred does not catch and you do!. How can a carp pick one bait from another?

I come back to the apple. If a carp eats a bait, how does it know that bait is better for it, when the results of that food will not be evident for some time, maybe months. 

If we humans cannot tell if an apple is doing us good, how does a carp tell a bait is doing it good unless it eats it?  Even then, if enough anglers use a cheaper bait along side those on expensive baits, how does the carp tell what one is doing it good?

No offence to anyone, I just enjoy banter and would buy you a pint in the pub to argue over.

Dicky.

 

Im not saying that they will just swim over a bait, the opposite, that carp will eat just about anything, its my opinion than a bait with more nutritional value will have them coming back for more, i dont think they sit there and think "that bait was better quality and more expensive" lol, i think its more down to a subconscious level, a basic instinct. I think they search out certain things that are not/or not commonly available to them. Like a 50/50 bait will catch, but i think a bait with more of what the carp needs in it will catch more keep em coming back.

 

A dog will eat anything, so why dont they just chew grass, why dont we eat tree bark soup every day? because its not a nutritional as a good old steak, on that point is a good steak good for you every day? no, it will leave your body craving out for other things. What im getting at is a boilie containing high attract stuff but little actual nutrition will not sustain a carp, a bait that has more of the right ingredients will do a better job.  So the same way you would start craving other items of food if you only had tree bark soup or a steak every day, beyond being conscious of it your body will actively crave for other items, same with any animal. So again im not saying that a carp will actively avoid a bright yellow highly flavored 50/50 boilie, it will indeed take it, probably faster than a not so attractive one that has more nutritional value, but in my humble opinion it a bait has said nutritional value a carp will actively search it out over one with less. Its the same sort of thinking as hnv baits, aminos, milk proteins ect. 

 

All of the above is just my opinion of course, how it works out in my head.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm no big boilie angler, I'm much more of a feeder/float angler, but I'm pretty sure carp won't just pick up any boilie. Over time it will learn what's good for it, not to mention that I'm pretty sure carp can sense what the water contains around them and the reason why people strive to make everything balanced in their boilies is to make sure the water AROUND it as it leaks its ingredients tells the carp "hey, I'm full of goodies, I have all you need, eat me". If its telling it "im just pizza dough and boilie dye" the fish simply wont eat it, as there isn't much nutritional value in it. Carp are DEFINITELY not stupid, they're animals which have evolved for millions of years, they know how to take care of themselves and what to eat. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you spend time looking into how they detected items as food then things become pretty straight forward in a fish's world they can either detect it or they can't simples. There are elements in most baits (not just boilies) that trigger there senses learning what they are can help when selecting baits that will score better than others.

Its no secret some items pumped off the media wagon the fish simply have no way of detecting.

With regards to protein no point really using anything that contains over 40% (it might be lower than this) as the fish can't utilise any more than that in one gut passing. Of course this is just 1 of a multiple of things that go into making a good boilie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't educate someone that doesn't want to be educated but even those naturals contain items that are essential to a carps survival, even your beloved nuts CM all contain something that make then attractive that is detectable by the fish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like BC highlights there is carp tax on most things, but there are specific items which are generally produced from or have genetic links to the aquatic world that fish not just carp find very attractive.

I agree with you with regards to the hype wagon, but the fishing industry is a multi million pound industry and everyone wants a piece so you are going to get the show reel when something new comes along.  But that doesn't mean all boilies are rubbish, I know guys that sell bait that spend 12-18 months getting things right before they sell it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What makes that liver so attractive CM ? they not flapping there fins and going oooooo someone's brought pigs liver

Seeing as my latest so called super bait is based around 2 good quality liver products ;).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Why not just use the flaming liver Hutch

Because the 2 products i use are processed in a form that benefits the fish by making the nutrients more readily to the fish's digestive system.

Quote

where meat baits dominate, you can take lakes apart, i dont care why, just if, stop anylising and accept what works

 Never said it didn't work, it is you that is saying boilies don't work

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh... I need a rethink because you say so , your be alright thanks ; more than happy with all the baits I choose to use be it particle or boilie or pellets or anything in between. 

Couldn't care less what match anglers get up to tbh like you say horses for courses. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Take time to go on you tube and view Dave Lanes latest blog back in Northampton, incidentally at our possible venue for a social, he has blanked for 5 and a half months, that's Dave L ane, and that's the valley in winter, he is not stupid enough to buy another winter ticket in the valley by his own admission, BST mate unless you like arctic camping.

Having watched said video this is not how i read it but hey ho 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, carpmachine said:

Millionares like Stevy  Ringer, only snigger at people who dont see whats in front of them, there living depends on guys not really having a clue, dont bother fishing against him, he wont be using boilies.

Nor will he be using nuts! 

You cant compare match angling on commercial, stocked to the brim, waters to 'proper' carp angling. You doing this just proves how off the mark you are in a lot of your comments and why people should take what you write with a pinch, make that a sack load, of salt! 

 

Oh, as a side note.......

steve ringer boilies anyone??? Lol

 

IMG_4901.PNG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry. But i simply don't believe carp will look/search out a better quality bait. They just don't have the time or energy to ignore other food items. As Keek said he is the average, and he uses 1kilo of bait a session. Tell me how are carp finds that 1kilo out above other food.

Someone mentioned a cigarette butt, and that a carp would only try it once. That's giving a carp a massive thought process. You can still catch the biggest carp on bread. It's all down to application. I'm surprised no one has picked up on that?

Big Common. I should have said carp with test/try everything rather than eat everything. You right they will only eat what they know is good for them, like those little round balls. But I still say they would have to eat one first.

i really do think the most educated, honest, thoughtful, and enthusiastic of carp anglers get blinkered when it comes to boilies. 

But it's just my humble opinion.

Dicky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, chillfactor said:

Fairly obvious that really .... & covers all baits including boilie.  

So could you tell us ( in the context were talking about expensive boilies)  good and bad application please? I'd be really interested in your answer.

Dicky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Dicky123 said:

So could you tell us ( in the context were talking about expensive boilies)  good and bad application please? I'd be really interested in your answer.

Dicky.

Too many variables to try and explain in a post on here. 

Experience is the key. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

it has its place, hi viz at night, and i wll always swap to it during the hours of darkness,

Hi viz huh, so i can guarantee that you have never night dived because if that was the case you would know this is utter tosh unless you are within inches of it.

Quote

 they dont get the mystical signals

Those same signals that come off the very baits you love.

Quote

Sorry. But i simply don't believe carp will look/search out a better quality bait. 

Nobody has suggested this in this thread as far as i can see, a carp has to swim to stay alive which means to burns energy to do so, to replace energy they have to eat items that will replace this energy as quickly as possible or they die simples,  to do this they will go for the easiest meal that costs them the least amount of expanded energy, so as BC has said a wild creature/fish they are hard wired for optimum feed efficiency. Ever been on a mountain climb, why do you think they recommend eating nuts and sweet stuff because they sugars are a fast energy hit when your tired.

Quote

That's giving a carp a massive thought process. You can still catch the biggest carp on bread. It's all down to application. I'm surprised no one has picked up on that?

 They must be so disappointed that mother nature provided all those receptor sites on various different levels of attraction if they don't need to use them, you need to understand how carp search for food, like i said to CM with the liver why does bread work, the answer is simple.   Bait application and bait are to different things in my book and getting better at picking the right A for B is down to experience like Nige says.

Quote

You right they will only eat what they know is good for them, like those little round balls. But I still say they would have to eat one first.

It's back to there senses that mother nature gave them all those thousands of years ago, they don't taste like we do but they do have a system for taste

Quote

i really do think the most educated, honest, thoughtful, and enthusiastic of carp anglers get blinkered when it comes to boilies. 

I totally agree as with most industries have a host of sheep sold by the marketing its how business works unfortunately, but you will find the best anglers on here have a multi approaches for various situation and that doesn't include the exclusive use of boilies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCBxrsu8tlg

So the video, although he states he has struggled over the winter also said he has only done a couple of blogs from, he brought the ticket with hope of it being a winter water, but clearly hasn't worked out so, if you are going to spend serious time on the bank you invest it in the right waters, its a known fact that some waters shutdown over the winter no matter what you do, in this vid he also says he got his tactics again this happens on waters up and down the country and even Laney gets it wrong sometimes he is human after all. 

Anyway the folks here are old enough to make there own minds up.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...