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Dicky123

Why expensive boilies are a con.

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I had a chat last year with a chemist in his lab.....I'm talking floor to ceiling chemicals, marked up with red squares and skull and crossbones, orange squares with "dead environments and animals" you guys know the ones.  I stumbled across the place by accident and the name of the company and the smell of  "bait" intrigued me so I poked my head in had a chat for half hour found out that he supplies the top 5 bait companies with the flavouring for some of the biggest most well known boilies around just like his father did before him....Any way long story short I walked out of there with a one litre jug of seriously highly potent tuna flavouring(it absolutely stinks to high heaven of tuna) if I remember correctly you use 5ml (that bit is definitely correct) to 1 egg mix or 1kg of boilie mix (that bit I can't remember) so it's strong stuff! It cost me £11 ish I think. So....now as yourself this.... what's actually in your food source/high attract boilies.... do any of us actually know?! Unless we make them ourselves I think the answer is no.... anyway I get my boilies cheap the KEY is  I know a guy lol

 

i think a lot of what has been written above is correct, some of it is quality some of it is confidence some of it is luck and some of it is time and dedication.

 

rambling over 😉

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Finnaly.

 

SPR. Your ok to ramble it's how we speak to each other buddy.

So we all have our own ideas on bait. Myself that started the thread still think the expensive stuff is a con. 

Others think carp seek out their expensive baits, ok.

So can anyone tell my why;   From late Autumn, to early Spring,  single bright hookbaits work so well? 

Why the biggest of carp get caught over and over again on bright single hook baits. No expensive baiting here?

They don't have a chance to taste it before being caught ( Big Common they have to take it in their mouth for the hook to catch! )

Almost everyone has a favourite colour flavour, they get caught on all sorts?

I still maintain carp will try anything that looks like food. As Big Common says if it's not food ( as the carp thinks ) it will be ejected, and hooked. For this reason alone putting a bait in front of a carp costing an arm and a leg is simply crazy.  It cannot tell at the time it's going to do it good, I also maintain with it eating other baits, cheaper boilies, corn, wheat, bread, pellets etc. IT DOES NOT KNOW THAT PARTICULAR EXPENSIVE BAIT IS DOING IT ANY GOOD.

One thread member said carp move around and expand energy to live. So true, they have to eat enough food of calorific vaule to maintain weight and condition. I've never said HNV bait was not good for carp, it is. But you don't have to use it to catch the biggest fish in the lake, that's down to your application, and skills. I maintain carp cannot tell one boilie from another, it's just food.

Humans are by far the most advanced of species, if we cannot tell an Apple is doing us good, and a MacDonalds is doing us harm, how the hell does a carp know a £13 boilie is the best thing for it?

Dicky.

 

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Big Common.

With respect your missing the point by a mile. They have to take the bait in their mouth, they don't have any other means of tasting, feeling. If it's taken in the mouth, the carp anglers objective is acheived, most time the fish is hooked.

If it's not the case, why are so many fish caught on plastic? As I mentioned in my last post, your right if it's not food, it comes out with gravel and other rubbish it's sucked in.

The point is it's in the mouth long enough to be caught, expensive bait or plastic!

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The reason companies like Mainline and Sticky can sell their bait at a higher price than most, is down to convenience, most anglers like myself tend to get what they need from the tackle shop, if i buy a kilo of bait from a local shop and go fishing for a day or two, if i need more bait while i'm away, i can go to another shop and buy the same bait. It's all overheads, if the same companies tried to have the same out-let power for a lower price, there would be no profit for all the supply chain it takes to have their products available from most retail shops, i wouldn't be surprised if the baits cost less than a quid to manufacture, then it goes to the wholesaler, the agent, then the shop, there is a lot of wages being paid in that chain.  

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It's like everything in fishing, a time and a place. The key, as I mentioned earlier, is the experience to know that that time, that place and what to put there in what quantity! 

As an add on, again steve, you can't compare match angling to specimin carp angling. Two completely different scenarios. Although, if you want to paint with a broad brush as you do; I can name a list as long as you like of match anglers that use boilies! With that broad brush, you include carp matches like the bcac and the like. 

You alude to dave lane being the best carp angler out there with comments like "if dave lane cant catch, no one can". Add  to his name Terry Hearn, Rod Hutchinson, Tim Paisley, Richie McDonald, Mike Wilson, Chris Ball, Kev Clifford... the list can go on.... all use or used boilies. Yeah, I'm certain they will all have used other baits as well but that's the point. Certain situations require certain techniques. 

Heres one for you.... the last time I cast out a bottom bait 'boilie' was over 3 years ago! However, it's getting the fish feeding confidently and coming back for more that I want to achieve with my baiting. Boilies play a huge part in that. 

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28 minutes ago, nigewoodcock said:

It's like everything in fishing, a time and a place. The key, as I mentioned earlier, is the experience to know that that time, that place and what to put there in what quantity! 

As an add on, again steve, you can't compare match angling to specimin carp angling. Two completely different scenarios. Although, if you want to paint with a broad brush as you do; I can name a list as long as you like of match anglers that use boilies! With that broad brush, you include carp matches like the bcac and the like. 

You alude to dave lane being the best carp angler out there with comments like "if dave lane cant catch, no one can". Add  to his name Terry Hearn, Rod Hutchinson, Tim Paisley, Richie McDonald, Mike Wilson, Chris Ball, Kev Clifford... the list can go on.... all use or used boilies. Yeah, I'm certain they will all have used other baits as well but that's the point. Certain situations require certain techniques. 

Heres one for you.... the last time I cast out a bottom bait 'boilie' was over 3 years ago! However, it's getting the fish feeding confidently and coming back for more that I want to achieve with my baiting. Boilies play a huge part in that. 

Well said there mate, Thats exactly my thinking, i cant cast out 5 kilo of popups or foam to get a bed down and build a feeding situation, so i use what i think is a good food bait to do this, ill often have something a bit different (pop up, wafter ect) sitting over that bed of bait, especially early on in the session as my choice of boilie, which i class as a food source bait, may take a little longer than a high impact bait to work get a bit, but i genuinely believe that a good food source bait will keep them coming back thats why i use what i deem to be a decent one.

 

Spri1985 said what matters most here, its about confidence. If i had my best sessions on a high impact bait, a pigs liver or a piece of foam then guess what id be bigging up lol. Another thing that has been mentioned is that its how you apply that bait, where you use it ect. Its also lake dependent, In my early days carping i fished a lake, took my bait of choice at the time (boilies) and blanked numerous times, turns out if id done my homework in the first place this particular lake fished best with particle, i used it on the next trip and boom, fish in the net. 

 

CM you mentioned earlier in the thread that you challenge someone to bring their "super bait" to "your lake" and you would catch a shed load on a bit of pigs liver and they would blank, but thats not really  true test for this is it. What im getting at is on a lake which you state has never seen boilies, a lake which you know does well on other items (pigs liver) is a single lake in the country. You also say you do well with nuts (if im not mistaken), but thats not to say they will work better than boilies at another. Im not digging you out, but thats pretty tunnel visioned talk from someone. Its confidence in what you use, how you use it, where you use it. All baits have a use, its knowing when to use them that will land you fish and more importantly being able to use that knowledge when visiting new waters. 

 

A better test would be for everyone to meet at a lake nobody has fished before, with no prior knowledge and then see what happens. Im willing to bet that more than a couple will catch using different baits, pop ups, high impact, food source, foam,  you name it. Coz in my opinion a good angler will no when and how to use them. My approach for this particular lake would be to try make what im most confident in work, thats a £10 a kilo food source bait, but you with your pigs liver may well catch as many or also blank.

 

 

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1 hour ago, carpmachine said:

Mate, you just prove a point, your bits of foam dont give of the mystical signals, they are mistaken for naturals, and to date, i have never seen a champion match angler use a boilie and i know a few.

I've never seen a goalkeeper win the seasons top scorer award, but then again, I've never seen a team without a goalkeeper win the league. 

Two different things match fishing and carp fishing. Again though, if you want to use that broad brush, then every world champion, British champion, European champion etc etc in the carp match world use boilies! 

You bang on so much about commercial venues being against all that you think fishing should be, yet you only ever comment or use them as examples. Are you sure your not just a commercial bashed posing as a carp angler??? Lol

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I think a bit of clarification is needed, good bait, quality bait doesn't have to be expensive. First look at what your paying for when you buy a bag of boilies stocked into the shops.

Ingredients

Labour

Shipping

Tax (twice)

Shop Mark Up

I would guess the shops are getting a kilo of boilie for around £4 to £5 per kilo.

That's why it's expensive.

 

Moving on to food recognition 

A carp does not know what is good for it on a first encounter, but it may recognise particular ingredients, like GLM, Betaine, Liver Powder the list goes on, and a carp may or may not associate these ingredients with a pleasurable experience, hence the pick up.

Association is the key word, if a carp or any other fish for that matter associates a smell, a taste or even a feeling of displeasure, it wont even need to pick up the bait in the first place to know it's bad, remember, carp learn by association.

Boilies

Let's not fall into the thinking the boilies are all the same because they are not.

Some are Food Source, some are High Attract, 

High Attract baits are designed to trigger a response in a carp that is otherwise not interested in feeding, almost lure fishing. Hence the bright colours and the higher levels of ingredients.

These baits normally don't hold a lot of nutritional value and carp soon become aware they aren't getting much from the food and soon seek alternatives.

Food Source work on a completely different level, they are lower in attraction but packed full of food that benefits carp, aids growth, aids condition and general health. 

Food source baits generally need to be applied over a longer period to get the full benefit for an angler but so few actually follow it through.

It's been referred to as The Switch, this switch happens when fish accept your bait as a food source, they actively hunt this food out which is when carp become far easier to catch.

We've all heard from other anglers

"I couldn't do anything wrong" 

"It didn't matter what I did, the fish really wanted that food"

I've experienced it myself, many of us have, that's the switch.

Now move onto the issue of morality, why would you not want the healthiest, best food possible for the fish your catching? Why would you choose to use a bait the has no benefit to a fish what so ever.

The fact is, boilies, nuts, seeds, maggots,  worms, particles all catch, I have also seen carp turn their noses up at every one of them.

Boilies, good boilies, healthy boilies are the same as other instant, high attract variants and they aren't always expensive. 

I use a quality boilie, that's been developed and tested by a fish scientist, and it only costs £7 a kilo, and that's because they don't supply shops. 

 

You have to get this poo put of your head because boilies are not all the same.

Look at your own fishing, look at the time you have and pick the best bait for your situation and stop thinking everything is the same.

 

 

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Epic discussion here!!!!!!  

 

I'm of the belief that the bigger bait company's are indeed a con and could sell hype in bags on it own. You have to see the bigger picture with hyped up bait and what you are really paying for, you can get equally as good if not better bait from lesser known company's that will post your bait fresh to your door. Like someone else posted its all the added factors with the main brands that put the costs up so high, the cost of sponsoring the big name anglers to promote the all singing and dancing bait on youtube videos and dvds magazines and social media then you have to consider all the other factors like shipping and shop overheads after all is done i bet your paying £13 for a bait that costs £2 a kilo to produce.

 

A carp will eat a whole variety of bait and carp fishing can be as cheap or as expensive as we the anglers want to make it for our self's, i refer to carp as water pigs they will eat almost anything if put in front of them you hear it time and time again "confidence in a bait" but i honestly believe that to be wrong it should be confidence in the application of the bait, if there are no fish in your swim you will not catch its a simple as that. 


If you fished 1 rod on a £13 patch of bait from a well know company and 1 meter away fished another rod on a  bait from a lesser known company, Would the carp always take the more expensive bait?? instead of thinking which brand of boilie to use think more on where that bait should be placed.

 

Find the fish!!! Feed the fish!!!! Catch the fish!!!!!

 

 

 

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So can anyone tell my why;   From late Autumn, to early Spring,  single bright hookbaits work so well? 

Why the biggest of carp get caught over and over again on bright single hook baits. No expensive baiting here?

They don't have a chance to taste it before being caught ( Big Common they have to take it in their mouth for the hook to catch! )

Almost everyone has a favourite colour flavour, they get caught on all sorts?

I still maintain carp will try anything that looks like food. As Big Common says if it's not food ( as the carp thinks ) it will be ejected, and hooked. For this reason alone putting a bait in front of a carp costing an arm and a leg is simply crazy.  It cannot tell at the time it's going to do it good, I also maintain with it eating other baits, cheaper boilies, corn, wheat, bread, pellets etc. IT DOES NOT KNOW THAT PARTICULAR EXPENSIVE BAIT IS DOING IT ANY GOOD.

One thread member said carp move around and expand energy to live. So true, they have to eat enough food of calorific vaule to maintain weight and condition. I've never said HNV bait was not good for carp, it is. But you don't have to use it to catch the biggest fish in the lake, that's down to your application, and skills. I maintain carp cannot tell one boilie from another, it's just food.

Humans are by far the most advanced of species, if we cannot tell an Apple is doing us good, and a MacDonalds is doing us harm, how the hell does a carp know a £13 boilie is the best thing for it?

Ill try and answer these for you based on the facts that are available about a carp's biological make up but you can't not compare a fish's digestive system to a human one to completely different things.

Why do you think bright singles work ?, have you ever made your own hookbaits or even looked at how they are made and what is in there make up.

For what its worth pop ups are generally made with high levels of liquid based attractors normally double sometimes treble what you would get in a normal boilie for the purpose of getting the fish to hone in on that bait.  Colour is an interesting one it is believed carp have pretty good eye sight and colour may act in getting the attention of the fish (possible investigation trigger), but is the colour you are fishing really standing out as you believe, eg if your water has blue dye in it to stop the weed and you fish a bright yellow pop up it looks washed and dull so was it the colour that got you a take if it rips off ?

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I still maintain carp will try anything that looks like food.

Its a fish it doesn't feed purely on sight, you need to read up on how a FISH locates food sight doesn't play a part when location in the dark, also think about how light diffuses in water if the lake is deep then sight will play very little part in location.

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I also maintain with it eating other baits, cheaper boilies, corn, wheat, bread, pellets etc. IT DOES NOT KNOW THAT PARTICULAR EXPENSIVE BAIT IS DOING IT ANY GOOD.

Totally agree doesn't need to be expensive all those baits have elements within there make up that attract fish just because you can't smell them doesn't mean they are not there, whats the key component in bread ? (its also something that is very attractive to the fish)

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I maintain carp cannot tell one boilie from another, it's just food.

Plain and simple your wrong, its mouth is loaded with its gustatory system (equivalent to taste in a human), when the fish sucks a bait into its teeth it breaks it down and these senses kick in,  pretty pointless in mother nature giving you something that plays no use bit like you having hands and not using them.

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how the hell does a carp know a £13 boilie is the best thing for it?

Doesn't have to be a £13 a kilo boilie it gets to that price via the guide lines that Gaz put in his post, your not just paying for the boilie.  But a carp's digestion system is pretty simple it has no stomach it absorbs nutrients from what it eats as it passes through the gut the easier what it eats passes through the gut the quicker the nutrients get into its body and the better it feels if it is lacking in something. They have a daily dietary requirement to survive you as an angler have the option to provide it with some of these elements to keep your lakes stock healthy.

Anyway if you want to learn something then read the above, if not then ignore and carry on.

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imagine this scenario. 

Someone bangs on about there far  superior fermented  bait , and how much they prebait it & there catches on for what can only be described as an over stocked lake are really poor .

Two lads turn up empty said lake with the boilie approach, which in turns sends said angler on the quest for the super boilie. 

You couldn't make it up ...stick on top of that he also pays more for his boilies than most ...... you couldn't right it :lol:

 

Oh hang on carpmachine did! 

 

 

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So therefore you are creating the same situation, via your chosen baiting application, or have i missed something, surely bait choice is an angler controlled variable so if that angler is happy putting that quantity of there chosen bait at what ever it is costing them as long as they happy paying that then all is equal.  I agree it does not have to be expensive but if boilies are the anglers chosen bait then it is up to that angler to work out if there being done or not, boilies do not have to be expensive to be good and nutricous you just have to learn what makes them that in the first place.

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Hutch.

Your last paragraph seems a little bombastic, it's assuming your right?   I'm sure your not like that and it's just a slip of the pen?

 I didn't say a fish feeds by sight alone, show me where I stated it. Again along with others your assuming, and not reading what I'm saying.

I cannot really see what you have added to the debait. You've just copied my paragraphs, and not really answered anything I've acutually said?

And who's facts are you basing the reply on yours, others, bait companies? A fact is something you know to be 100%, none of us know it all! Saying your going to tell us the facts, again sounds as if you know it all.

I have a good idea why bright pop ups work, it's why I mentioned it. But it also shows you don't have to buy expensive bait to catch fish, and that was my point. Did you miss that part of what I said?  It's why I use instant style baits with good attraction, so if I read you right, it's something we agree on, yes?

Your saying bright pop ups work due to the high attraction levels, but it doesn't answer why so many big fish keep falling for them over and over again. To be honest I'd love someone to tell me the answer. It makes me believe carp are not as smart as we give them credit for, and that goes to my main point. I still don't believe they can tell a good bait from something less good regardless what receptors they have in their mouths.  Gone are the days of semolina baits anyway as you know, they just use a cheaper form of fishmeal, or birdseed. So even cheaper baits do a carp good. 

It sounds as if your saying, a carp can tell when it takes a bait in it's mouth that it's going to do it good. Honest I find that implausible, sorry. But I'm open to be persuaded if you can come up with a good answer.

Carp sight you mentioned. Well it's not dark all the time. I've caught a lot of carp with nymphs fly fishing, casting to them and then letting it either sit beside them or moving it very slowly. They have a window of around 36'', it seems outside that they appear to be much like badger. But they do see shapes against a light background like the sky. So I think it's a mixture of smell and sight, and as important movement in the water. Strangly they also take nymphs in coloured water too, now thats a conundrum.

I've said from the start HNV good bait is good for carp (please go back and read it) But I also said it's not needed to catch fish, and more to the point it's a con making people think it is.

Debait is a good thing, but none of us know it all?

Dicky.

 

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Your last paragraph seems a little bombastic, it's assuming your right?   I'm sure your not like that and it's just a slip of the pen?

Nobody is ever 100% right in anything.

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I cannot really see what you have added to the debait. You've just copied my paragraphs, and not really answered anything I've acutually said?

Thats your opinion mate and your entitled to it but you have not answered any of the questions asked about your statements, where is bread attractive to fis they don't know its bread something attracts them to it.  Your original question on why expensive boilies are a rip off was pretty much summed up in Gazlaar's post detailing how you get to a price point a lot of them are just very ordinary mixes with carp tax applied.

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And who's facts are you basing the reply on yours, others, bait companies? A fact is something you know to be 100%, none of us know it all! Saying your going to tell us the facts, again sounds as if you know it all.

My facts are based on how a carp detects food via what mother nature gave it as a species on earth, so biology, scientific research papers, my own experiences and the experience of others which is one of the good things about places like this (and yes some of the people have ties to bait companies, some run bait companies on a smaller scale)

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I have a good idea why bright pop ups work

So why try and pick holes in others when you know the answer to the question, and more to the point why don't you share your finding regarding bright ones.

Interesting stuff about the nymphs, the only place they can't really see is between there eyes i posted a link to an article on the carpology website regarding eye sight which pretty much some's it up. 

Debait is great but you never stop learning :)

 

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Don't mix waters!

Carp in heavily stocked waters have to eat almost everything they have thrown at them, whereas carp in 'natural' or low stocked waters can choose what they eat.

Smaller, younger carp may well feed more on sight than on nutrition, they want to eat everything, to help them grow quickly.

Don't also think that Sweetcorn is low nutrition, it is rich in a number of nutrients:
 

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Ferulic acid, beta-carotene, vanillic acid, coumaric acid, caffeic acid and syringic acid are other key phytonutrients provided by corn. Corn is a good source of pantothenic acid, phosphorus, niacindietary fibermanganese and vitamin B6.

 

Nutrition changes through the year, but at any time the first nutritional requirement is energy. Energy is required to breakdown proteins! Energy is required to move. Once the energy requirement has been fulfilled, then any additional protein provided can be utilised.

Energy providers are carbohydrates, fats and protein.

Protein can be used for energy, but it's priority is for growth and tissue repair.

In most cases, animal proteins provide a better source of utilisable amino acids than most vegetable proteins.

You can put in the best boilie bait going, but it there is not enough to compete in quantities with natural foods, or even other amounts of introduced boilies, the carp may not eat or get caught over it, please note the difference; get caught over it. They may well eat it, but are not confident enough to get caught over it.

I can eat apples every day, but if I eat only apples my health would suffer. I need a protein source to go with it. 

This is where food source boilies come in, they are attempting to give a balanced diet in one food, which Fred Wilton in his original boilie came up with, to make up nutritional shortfall.

The boiling was done to deter smaller fish eating his pastes, in the process making the baits harder, and able to be fired out as freebies.

 

With the numbers of anglers and bait firms around now, it is very difficult to establish a bait to the exclusion of all other baits, but I have seen it done, and done it myself.

On Taverham Mills, around 1992/3, New Concept Baits (Brian Hewitt, real good guy), made a mix called Mariner Mix, a fishmeal bait that a number of us were using. Every week or even day, some Mariner Mix boilies were being introduced. It was rare for day ticket anglers who came to catch a carp on any other boilie, and we all tried a different bait on one rod at some time. Every time we fished the last of our boilies were put in, regular pre-baiting, so the carp always had the bait in front of them. Even other fishmeal boilies did not catch as prolifically!

 

On Earith Virginia Water, a mate and I prebaited Trigga, for 2 years it was rare for us to suffer a blank, even in the middle of winter. I honestly lost count of the number of fish I caught, and plenty were over 20lb. We had tweaked the base mix and attractors slightly, so when others learnt we were on Trigga, and used the standard freezer version, our tweaked version still produced more.

 

On both of those lakes, as much as we had prebaited, we could fish any swim on the lakes and catch.

 

My point about the number of anglers on various waters, hardly any who fish the swim will be on the same bait as the angler before, I honestly think most anglers use a different bait from the angler next door. If you could get enough anglers on a water fishing the same good food source bait, then it would probably catch more. Some lakes like maybe The Essex Grange (clue there), were fished by every angler using a particular Mainline bait, and that bait became a 'must have' around the country, it was being pre-baited on a daily basis almost everywhere.

On Swangey, Tails-up were just up the road, and The Protavit Liver was tested there, to the exclusion of almost all other baits. Any visiting day ticket angler knew to grab a bag, or blank.

The high attract, high visibility bait, Pineapple Juice, Pineapple and N-butyric, may not work on just visibility, but also on added attractors. Just because a fish takes it, does not mean it was caught on visibility, maybe the added attractors evoked its attention, N-butyric acid is a very good attractor and feed inducer. You can add Betaine, or GLM extract to a bait, and it will become more attractive. In fact they are feed enhancers added to a lot of animal foods, from pig foods, dog foods, even fish foods...

That yellow (or other colour) pop-up may also work on another base, if you fish it over a yellow background feed, Vitalin, maize or sweetcorn, was the fish picking up on the pop-up, or simply sucking everything in as it feeds.

 

On high visibility high attract baits, a water I used to fish went through stages. For a while Dynamite Green Zing pop-ups produced best in winter, then after a few fish over a couple of weeks the fish started avoiding them, and Pineapple N-butyric became the one to use. A couple of weeks later the in bait was Sweetcorn.

A year or so later I fished a week between Christmas and New Year, for two days I could only get takes on high attract pop-ups, then after two days of feeding my food source bait, for the rest of the session I could only get takes on that food bait. Bear in mind I was fishing both at all times.

Another thing about those pop-ups, at times they may produce more, certain times of the year; winter and spring. The feed inducers or attractors may provoke a reaction, then in summer they switch off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Like I've mentioned High Attract boilies are heavily loaded to provoke a response in a fish that isn't necessarily looking for food.

It's almost like lure fishing, like zigs.

These big fish you talk about being caught again and again, you have to look at the venue, the stock and angling pressure as well as the time of year.

Spring and Autumn always spring to mind when ever I think of fish feeding heavily, pre spawn and pre winter phases.

I've found these times to be the most responsive on lower stocked venues where the fish are particularly shy of any bank side disturbance and angling presence.

Predation also moves goal posts, this also dictates where and how fish feed.

There are too many variables to get any definitive answer on any given water, but that's why fishing for carp is such an allure.

Food source baits are really for the campaigner, the angler who's wants to stick to one water long term.

Instant baits are more suited to anglers who do shorter sessions on a number of different waters.

The problem we have now, all of the manufacturers are producing good high quality baits. 

 

 

 

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