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Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Dicky123

Why expensive boilies are a con.

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Just now, phil dalts said:

Its not really rip off britain is it, you take 20% tax off plus rrp then see what you are left with. This discussion could go so many different ways

I'm with you there Phil, peeps in this country don't realise how lucky they are......

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Just makes me laugh, everyone thinks they should get something for nothing. If the profit wasnt there i.e rrp  then where would we be? No profit, no making the things again, who wants to do all the hard work and not make anything??? I dont

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1 minute ago, phil dalts said:

Just makes me laugh, everyone thinks they should get something for nothing. If the profit wasnt there i.e rrp  then where would we be? No profit, no making the things again, who wants to do all the hard work and not make anything??? I dont

Keep laughing and paying over the odds il keep smiling and looking for value (not for nothing)

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end of the day its up to the individual to find the best value for them. I know I can get bait for less than £12 a kilo and its of better quality. As I said £12 a kilo is a rip off when they make it for less than a £1 a kilo. add on wages, electricity bills, transport... manufacturer and retailer are making £4-5 each off a kilo bag. Imagine the amounts being sold every week. Could easily be sold for cheaper and still make a profit but it isn't because people stupidly pay it... especially when crayfish meal is 60% + just shell... and IMO not an edge at all...i've seen it, smelt it, inspected it. I dont think replacing good quality fishmeal with it (which reduces costs anyway) will make a bait better at all. 

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I buy boilies on a per session basis... (but only if I take the Carbon out for a play, most times its Cane with meat corn worms or bread) I don't get out carping that often so I buy what I need for a session... (that said I have 4kg of Nash Amber Strawberry in the freezer bought on a whim) so for me buying a kilo of quality bait for a session isn't that expensive... to the lad who's out week in week out prebaiting every other day, then cost is going to be an issue, and to that end I can see that those guys are going to look elsewhere for a good quality food bait that doesn't cost an arm or a leg... they are not the target market that Nash Mainline Sticky etc are looking to focus on... yes they'd love to get the hardcore lads onto their products but those hardcore lads are sensible, whereas the bait companies are not that cute with their pricing structure... they could afford to drop the prices to get more serious anglers on board and still make a profit....

I spoke with Gary Bayes a couple of years ago on the very subject of bait pricing and I got the usual tale of high fishmeal costs, buying in bulk and packaging /shipping costs and the dealers cut... but then you ask any businessman about pricing of their products and you'd get the same tale, but it begs the question that if other guys can make a quality food bait and sell for almost half the price... why can't the big names...? I don't care if it comes in a plain bag... I don't need fancy graphics, or flashy promo's, as long as it's a good quality food bait, that will catch,and is good for the fish I'm not that fussed...

 

Just my twopennyworth...8)

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22 minutes ago, bluelabel said:

I spoke with Gary Bayes a couple of years ago on the very subject of bait pricing and I got the usual tale of high fishmeal costs, buying in bulk and packaging /shipping costs and the dealers cut... but then you ask any businessman about pricing of their products and you'd get the same tale, but it begs the question that if other guys can make a quality food bait and sell for almost half the price... why can't the big names...?

the buying power Nash has, the ingredients are so much cheaper than they are for the small outfits who produce better quality bait and sell for less. Everyone knows the more you buy the cheaper it is on anything! Deals can always be cut and if you are a major outfit like Nash or Mainline and buying in the tonnes not kg ingredients will be pennies. But then you have to really look whats in the baits... I don't rate mainline because every bait I've seen looks like a simple maize meal and semo mix and I wouldn't have any confidence in using it.

30 minutes ago, bluelabel said:

I buy boilies on a per session basis... (but only if I take the Carbon out for a play, most times its Cane with meat corn worms or bread) I don't get out carping that often so I buy what I need for a session... (that said I have 4kg of Nash Amber Strawberry in the freezer bought on a whim) so for me buying a kilo of quality bait for a session isn't that expensive...

As my point above... I don't believe they are quality baits at all being produced by the big names... so much of it is used it catches fish, not because its quality bait. If everyone used sweetcorn all the time then loads would be caught on it, what does it provide fish nutrition wise? very little at all. Simple as that.

 

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therein lies the conundrum... what is a quality bait....? how would I, as an average Joe Public angler know what constitutes a good quality bait...? all I have to go on is the blurb from the manufacturer, whomever they are... they all quote "great food source" , "good for the fish" well how do they know...? just because they grow fast on it, doesn't mean its good for them.... eat the wrong food and we grow fast, the downside is we live shorter lives.... I think the same applies to carp it's been discussed in other pages that fish don't know what is good for them... I think they do... but maybe we don't...?

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personally seeing an ingredient list would help anyone decide, most do not divulge that information... wonder why?! 

I guess it depends on who you are and how you want to fish. I started off not caring but as I have progressed I have started to care and look in to bait formulation, etc. Now I am test bait for a company which refuses to sell out to the masses and produce shoddy bait just for profit. I've been in the workshop and looked in the bins full of ingredients. Transparency. Something the big firms wont do! 

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There is a huge difference in strategies with the big boys vs. the cheaper high quality bait firms. Your Nash's and Mainlines will only sell through the shops and while that nearly doubles the price to the consumer it means they don't have to offer significant discounts for bulk buyers. It's a take-it-or-leave-it situation, they would rather not get the custom of the bulk buyers than lose their margin. Where bulk deals are offered, it's the shop that takes the hit.

Your smaller firms will almost always only sell direct and will always offer the bulk discounts.

One strategy looks after the profit margins solely, the other looks after the customer while maintaining a healthy balance sheet.

I actually rate the big boys products, they're as good as any smaller firms. Most have caught some of the most difficult fish in the country to catch several times over. The only difference is price which is dictated by the strategy the firm chooses to take.

I know which type of firm I choose......

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Loving this thread. Very interesting read. 

As yonny says, its a take it or leave it thing, as for pricing the big boys have more over mheads than the stand alone firms. Staffing, mass production and packaging artwork and packaging in general. You buy a 5 kilo sack and its covered in mainline logos and lovely art, you buy it from a small firm you get a clear bag with a sticker or some small advertising card heat sealed into top. Dont forget the big ones dont work from a shed or garage so they have gas/electric bills seperate from personal household bills. No bait is the best, there are rubbish quality and reasonable then great quality. Most small firms have a guy rolling, bung it in a bag, courrier it off. Bigger ones have packaging machinery etc, guys to pack the boxes, all that gubbins. 

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More overheads but also able to buy ingredients, etc. cheaper. Once packaging is designed it only needs printing and that's cheap when they'll be ordering in tens of thousands. energy, and now water costs are very competitive in the business sector, cheaper than household rates.

If you think because they are larger they can justifiably charge more because they need to cover costs you need to reassess. 

Quick check on companies house reveals that for 2015/16 financial year Mainline had £1.6m in shareholders funds, in other words profit .... the company also compensated the owners for use of their already owned premises for £416...not much more than a decent shed tbh

£1.6m profit...justify £12 a kilo now.

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7 minutes ago, greekskii said:

.. the company also compensated the owners for use of their already owned premises for £416...not much more than a decent shed tbh

wont let me edit for some reason...

A small unit in an industrial estate costs more than that a month to rent... mainline pay £416 annually to use the operating premises  

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17 minutes ago, greekskii said:

More overheads but also able to buy ingredients, etc. cheaper. Once packaging is designed it only needs printing and that's cheap when they'll be ordering in tens of thousands. energy, and now water costs are very competitive in the business sector, cheaper than household rates.

If you think because they are larger they can justifiably charge more because they need to cover costs you need to reassess. 

Quick check on companies house reveals that for 2015/16 financial year Mainline had £1.6m in shareholders funds, in other words profit .... the company also compensated the owners for use of their already owned premises for £416...not much more than a decent shed tbh

£1.6m profit...justify £12 a kilo now.

No, but it justifies a living, a good living, lets face it, thats why we work.

I wouldnt know about print costs, only own a printing firm........ 

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Just now, phil dalts said:

Will add that i do own a premises, employ 9 staff and do charge alot. Maybe thats a con too or a living

But I'm betting you offer a superior service to the cheap alternatives?

If so, that's different (the big bait firms offer nothing superior to the decent cheaper ones) and can be justified.

If not, yes you're a con man lol......

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All a much of a muchness yonny old chap. You want cheap n quick i can see loads online. They have the machinery to print lots at once so they have to sell 100 times more as i would to make their profit. Why make loads of cheaper bait to have to sell loads to make a profit?? As long as theres a market you need to capitalize on it. 

Touching on material/ingredients, you need to buy tons n tons to be cheaper, now, where to store it? Pay for somewhere which adds to costing, therefore adds to overall price.... See where im going with this?

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9 minutes ago, phil dalts said:

All a much of a muchness yonny old chap. You want cheap n quick i can see loads online. They have the machinery to print lots at once so they have to sell 100 times more as i would to make their profit. Why make loads of cheaper bait to have to sell loads to make a profit?? As long as theres a market you need to capitalize on it. 

Touching on material/ingredients, you need to buy tons n tons to be cheaper, now, where to store it? Pay for somewhere which adds to costing, therefore adds to overall price.... See where im going with this?

Do the likes of mainline, CCMoore, etc not buy in the tens, even hundreds, of tons then? pretty sure they would do... Stored in their own factories, etc. 

What you're saying makes sense in theory, to all businesses everywhere. But if you aren't relating it to these companies. As I said, mainline paid £416 for their premises annually... 

Buying power means the baits are produced cheaper but still sold at the same price. Yes business is business and more profit the better. But the quality mainline spits out for the price it charges is no way representative of what they pay to purchase ingredients, run the machines, pay salaries and bills and transportation. 

You own a printing firm, how much does it cost to print a graphic on a polythene bait bag? but remember I am mainline and I want 100,000 bags printing (wont last them long at all so its probably more in real life) how much would that cost me per bag?

Edited by greekskii

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How much..... Right, where to start, electric, ink, material, bods to run the machine, designers to send said file to machine. Power to run the pc the file comes from. Bods to finish the product. The cost of machine in the first place comes into play as does the type of material cost due to specific type-freezer friendly.  Very confusing

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