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bluelabel

Match Versus Specimen Stylee

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Okay... so you pile up to a commercial... no real depth, no snags, no real features (like many of the commercials I've seen) and you set up shop after looking for signs of the fish....

You cast out with your 3.00lb rods, with 15lb line, on big pits, size six Curveshank, and boilie traps (am I painting a familiar picture yet?)

And then you notice a bit of a commotion on another bank... you see a lad with a match tackle box and a feeder rod with a hefty curve in it... he's fishing an 11' method feeder rod a  size 12 hook, on 8lb hi-tech line,  10mm wafter on a 400size match reel... and pulls in a proper lump (and they go even lighter in the really cold weather) now I dunno about you guys, but sometimes I reckon we go carping SEVERELY overgunned for the water...

The reason for this change of heart...? Well In March I fished a match at Fennes Fishery in Braintree.... the day went badly with only 6lbs of small skimmers until about 30 mins to go.... I lobbed out a feeder rod with exactly the gear I described... the tip rapped round after about 30 seconds and I connected with a lumpy carp....

Now I don't expect this to happen every time I cast out, but the resulting fish was a 16lb 4oz Common, the fish put up a good scrap on light gear and after a few minutes duking it out, I bundled it into a waiting net (weighed and released immediately) (I won the match by 1oz with 22lb 4oz)

Now I am under no illusions that this is the way to fish all the time, but I really do think that in certain situations we go in waaay too heavy

Maybe.... just maybe the match guys have the right idea... I'm swapping my 15lb mainlines for 8lb HyperSensor ASAP and giving it a go with my 1.75lb Barbel rods....

 

 

 

Edited by bluelabel
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Fennes is just up the road from me, I think fish stocks play a huge part in how we attack things and in all honesty if I was going to fish fennes I'd leave the carp gear at home and fish it with a waggler rod and float. 

But fiahing the waters I'm fishing with the size fish that are in them I'd rather have my 3lb and 15lb gear all day long. Whilst I was at my lakes Tuesday afternoon the big girl came out at just over 46lb.....although possible on lighter gear I wouldn't want to chance it personally 

edit to add :-I have fished it with a 2lb 6ft stalking rod with ten lb Line and had my first fish from their in that gear a 15lb 7oz common was Great fun 

Edited by spr1985

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Well there's the rub....  Like you, I'd not use gear as light as that on a water that held big girls like that.....  but I did say that I'd only use it in certain situations

 eg: only on waters with no snags no real depth ...

 

(given the fact that most bailiffs never check yer gear anyway I may try it out on some of my local puddles just to compare my results)

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Years ago I started a thread called 'Overgunned' which covered fishing with lighter tackle than many of us use.

On a mixed fishery I don't think that carp gear is needed, unless you are specifically targeting big carp, and even then...

If the size of the largest carp in the lake is say mid double figures, then why use carp gear? A decent Avon or heavy ledger rod will tame these beasts. It may take time, but carefully balanced tackle will land them.

Add to that catching other species, like roach, perch, bream etc will teach more than just sitting for carp....

 

 

 

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I dont really think its the "being overgunned", I think its due to the fact that other types of fishing are just more active. With a method feeder your probably casting every 10/20 minutes depending on what the actions like. I Cant count the amount of times i have gone on a lake few of guys carping with 2 rods, I have turned up with a quiver tip and out caught them. I know a guy fishing Layer pits that also just used 2 method feeders on 2 little carp rods and smashed that place up.

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4 hours ago, Big Common said:

Personally, I would rather sacrifice a bite or two and make sure I've got the right kit to land a fish as quickly as possible and get it back safely.........

25 minute fights ain't the norm, should imagine it more stressful to a fish, resulting in landing something without an ounce of energy left.

The 16lb 4oz common I caught was landed on light gear (8lb hi-tech hooklink, 8lb Hyper-Sensor main) in just a few minutes, so I hardly think that every fight on light gear is going  to take 25+ minutes to land... it also went back strong as an ox (and we all know how common's fight)

 

I think a little perspective is needed... I'm not advocating going carping with 3lb line and a 2lb hooklink here.... just reasoning that some of the gear we use for carping is hugely overgunned, and I have to ask myself why...? is it because it's what we are confident in it....? or is it because that's what the bloke on the telly says to use....

Look at some of the match fishing programs on the box (there's a couple) and see what can be landed quickly on lighter gear, you may be surprised

 

My Carp reels & spare spools are loaded with 12lb & 15lb Hypersensor... but the 15lb will be giving way to some 8 or 10lb in the near future... I really don't think that the heavy gear is doing us any favours...

Just my opinion like....8)

 

Tight lines

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I use 15lb main line because I know it'll withstand abrasion. I also use a leadfree leader for the same reason. I don't want to lose a fish and have it trailing anything because my line got snapped or cut off. Simple as that. There will be times when it happens regardless, but that's yet to happen to me since fishing like this. 

But I'm the kind of guy that will get in and free a snagged fish if I really need to (and it's safe of course) I also use barbed hooks to reduce mouth damage but let's not get in to that debate. 

It really depends on where you fish. On a gravel or brick pit if you're fishing with anything lower than 12lb mainline you are irresponsible IMO. Just asking to be cut off. If you're fishing a no snag hole then light gear will work fine. As there is no danger. But even most day tickets have lilies, reeds, weedbeds.  

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1 hour ago, greekskii said:

If you're fishing a no snag hole then light gear will work fine.

 

On 5/17/2017 at 20:43, bluelabel said:

Okay... so you pile up to a commercial... no real depth, no snags, no real features (like many of the commercials I've seen)

S'wot I said...!

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10 hours ago, Big Common said:

I have to say, for the most part, I don't think people are sheep for doing what the next guy does. Most of the common methods have been proven, over time, to be successful in hooking and landing fish. These methods haven't been plucked out of thin air, they have evolved. The trouble is, once something has evolved to the point where it can't really be bettered, then there is no need to change things . And everyone catches up and ends up doing the same, it's common sense.

I wouldn't slate a carpenter for using a certain hammer or saw to do a certain job, when he is using the right tools for the job. Just because every other chippy is doing the same.

Bait application is key. If you get them feeding in the right manner, you don't need to worry too much about, rigs and breaking strains. Roach, Tench Bream, all get caught on 15lb bs and size 6 hooks, no need to scale down.

When you start to scale down, you are not doing anything different. You are going back in time to a place where we all got smashed up now and then for being under gunned. As this is a carp forum, I am of course referring to hooking and landing carp.

Fished out a couple of dead ones recently, nothing to do with rigs or tackle, most probably otters..... 3 in total so far. One more and that's around 10% of the stock..... Just gets me thinking how easy it is for stock numbers to drop.

Personally, I would rather sacrifice a bite or two and make sure I've got the right kit to land a fish as quickly as possible and get it back safely.........

25 minute fights ain't the norm, should imagine it more stressful to a fish, resulting in landing something without an ounce of energy left.

Not having a dig at anyone in person, just not being a sheep, in respect to this thread.

I would quote Greekski's post as well, but was too late.

I made the point on the 'Overgunned' thread how without thinking I had left 12lb line on in lilies at either Earith or Taverham, and still didn't lose a fish. I did however lose a couple on an 18lb line that was supposedly the dogs danglies by a major tackle manufacturer, where the abrasion resistance was absolutely kacke. 

For various reasons I do always now test my lines before I actually fish with them, and like Tackle Box tests I have found varying results. The diameter vs breaking strain, the abrasion resistance, what knots work best with any line.

 

On Brackens I was using 15lb line, and hooked a fish a couple of metres from my rod tip at ten past eight in the evening. The bailiff heard the run, and eventually netted the carp at nine!

One heck of a scrap from a 20lb common.

 

On another lake I was using I think 8lb mainline, to a 6 or 7lb hooklink for floater fishing, and near lilies. I did not expect a 20lb carp to take the dog biscuit. My Avon road was bent double, the fight took around 15minutes, less than many fights I have had on heavier tackle and I did a rather nice ghostie common that went over 20lb.

 

I do think that we have gotten to the stage that we expect to use heavier tackle rather than lighter, no ifs, no buts, it's now 15lb to start with, yet years ago, probably 80's it was 8lb to start, and 11lb if it was snaggy; Sylcast, almost impossible to break in 11lb!

 

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4 hours ago, Big Common said:

My argument would be that light lines or hooklinks will have more of a cheese wire effect and cut deep into the corners of the mouth leaving a nice groove for future hooklinks to sit in and cause more damage and so on.......

Seriously, I'm all ears... If you can give me a sensible reason as to why people should scale down, please do. I can think of many reasons why I think it's a no.

The 2 biggest things to mouth damage is test curves and uncoated braided hooklinks 

With a lighter test curve the rod soakes up the lunges all these sea rods i see people using soak up nothing.

With my light test curve rod i use a mono mainline that has a much less cheese wire effect than braid the most popular hooklink on the market normally paired with a couple of sea rods for ultimate mouth ripping combo.

Hooking them in the scissors is the real danger no matter what you are using the chances of causing damage goes up.

And if you are struggling with mouth damage dont forget to follow the fishery rules that where created by the tooth fairy when she last visited.

 

 

 

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I no longer fish carp puddles but on a local club pond I use pro logic 9ft rods,10lb line and some old Shimanos.  It's perhaps an acre in size, probably less and the fish love under the tree margins. Rods are 2.5tc.  I wasn't aware at the time but the company also do 8ft 2tc rods which I would have got. I once saw some carpers with big pits etc and bags of boilies perhaps they're brain dead,perhaps that's the only kit they own. 

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7 hours ago, DEANO30 said:

The 2 biggest things to mouth damage is test curves and uncoated braided hooklinks 

With a lighter test curve the rod soakes up the lunges all these sea rods i see people using soak up nothing.

With my light test curve rod i use a mono mainline that has a much less cheese wire effect than braid the most popular hooklink on the market normally paired with a couple of sea rods for ultimate mouth ripping combo.

Hooking them in the scissors is the real danger no matter what you are using the chances of causing damage goes up.

And if you are struggling with mouth damage dont forget to follow the fishery rules that where created by the tooth fairy when she last visited.

 

 

 

What a load of rubbish.... there seems to be a lot of talk of sheep on here copying the crowd, the same can apply to people listening to utter nonsense & not talking from there own experience. 

I have rods ranging from 1.75 to 3.5 none of them cause mouth damage. 

I also go sea fishing with ( sea rods ) oh guess what no mouth damage! 

Don't blame the kit blame the angler .

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14 minutes ago, chillfactor said:

Don't blame the kit blame the angler .

Never a truer word spoken. 

If your rigs work well you'll be hooking them bottom lip not the scissors. 

If you know how to play a fish mouth damage shouldn't be an issue. 

I landed a mid double carp from a river on 18lb mainline straight through to a size 4 barbed hook. It charged through multiple lily beds. Did it have mouth damage? Nope.  

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8 hours ago, Big Common said:

It all sounds fine in this mythical lake with no snags, I've yet to find one....... Even a dorsal fin can nick your line. All I'm saying is, if you fish for powerful large fish like carp, that can surge under the tip, then it's better to be over gunned than under gunned.

If I lose a fish to a break off. I want to be able to think afterwards that I did all I could to land it safely. I'm living in the real world here. How many lakes do you know with absolutely no snags or weed, I don't no any, and it's not something I'd just presume. You can't apply steady pressure on light gear, with thin supple line and a lighter rod tip. Too much stretch and spring. 

We've all heard stories of match men landing 20lb fish on pole gear. But does that make it right to fish for carp with a pole?

Heavy gear for heavy fish. Learning to fish with and present heavier tackle is a skill in itself imo. Rig concealment and rig mechanics are hard to get right all of the time. Get it right, with the right bait application, then you probably get a result. It's called carp angling lol.

I must say though, that I do think that there are a lot of anglers that are a bit heavy on the rod and reel side of things. Big pit reels are for big pits, not necessary for club lakes. I do prefer a 3lb tc to a 2.75tc, just to be able to bully a fish away from anything nasty.

I started last years fishing with some very old 3lb tc rods, that had softened over the years to probably around 2.5tc. I remember hooking two fish that I literally could do nothing with. The rod hooped over, giving both fish the extra couple of feet to bury themselves in thick weed. The rods just didn';t have the power required to gain control quickly enough. Both fish lost. My fault entirely for being under gunned.

Sorry Mate, 

Its not the test curve that is the rods 'power', the test curve is mostly the rods casting ability. A through action rod with a lighter test curve can be a better fish playing tool than a heavy tip actioned high test curve rod. The higher test curve tod at 'high pressure' is more likely to cause hookpulls or even tackle breakage than the through actioned rod.

 

It is knowing your tackle and how to use it.

 

I am not sure braid as a hooklink material is damaging the carps mouth, it is down to types of braid. A mainline braid is totally different from a hooklink braid, and hooklink braids are made of thicker fibres which are less cutting than the mainline Kevlar, Dyneema or whatever, although Drennan do make one which I would avoid.

Also because of the diameter in relation to breaking strain, many hooklink braids may actually be 25lb as opposed to say 15lb because the finer diameter would cut.

I have used braided hooklinks for years, from coated to uncoated, Multistrand, Merlin, Silkworm, Snakebite, Snakeskin, pretty much almost every Kryston hooklink material, and not seen any mouth damage from them, although 15lb is the absolute minimum I use.

Again, I think we head into the angler knowledge and sometimes tackle manufacturer 'grey area', because manufacturers can't guarantee how or where tackle is used, and newcomers, ignorance, not caring, or not understanding aren't there.

 

Poles for carp fishing, don't get me started!

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Any1 who knows anything about playing fish should know that it not rod alone that absorbs a sudden charge from a fish

Your rod should be an extention of your arm and most of the pressure from a run  should be taken in the elbow and clutch settings on your reel

I'm not saying test curve doesnt make a difference but it's a minimal difference if you know what your doing and if your walking the bank and see some1 doing it wrong educate them

 

Edited by harpz_31

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5 hours ago, salokcinnodrog said:

Poles for carp fishing, don't get me started!

ok Nick, lets get you started, i actually started off targeting carp ON THE POLE! :o

if a method is geared towards your target fish then what could possibly be the anglers objection to using it?

if poles were not meant to be used for carp then why are there so many variants specifically built for the sport, why would the manufacturers invest so much time and money into something not fit for purpose?

you have companies the likes of Shimano with the beastmaster, Ron Thompsons Gangster, Leeda Assassin, Maver iron arm.

all big companies and all good poles that are good for the job, a pole and the relevant strength elastic will cope with carp well into upper 20's without tiring them out any more than a rod will, (dependent on the angler of course) and land them in a comparable time too.

if you know how to use the piece of kit properly then all it can do is beef up your armory, the same with fly rods :twisted:

feel free to take this to a relevant thread but please respond cos i really would like to find out what the objections are, as most folk who have objected in person have only been able to display a dislike of 'match anglers methods' where i was actually looking for  an intelligent bit of thinking behind it.

looking  forward to the flack on this one :lol:

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No, I don't like seeing 'big' carp targeted using a pole, especially during matches.

The anglers is trying to get the fish in as quickly as possible, the hook may be anywhere in the mouth, whereas a carp rig is usually designed to hook bottom lip, on a pole the line may cut into the cheek, the lip, pretty much anywhere in the mouth as it turns. With our carp rigs, the hooklink line is not often exiting the mouth in the cheek scissors. The high pressure of the pole may cause that line to cut the flesh. The pole is trying to lift the fish up in the water.

 

On 'match' style waters, constant recapture (with any tackle), means the carp do not get the chance for hook marks to heal, continual rehooking means mouth damage, even using barbless hooks.

 

A water local to me used to be a match pole paradise carp water. The state of the fishes mouthes was disgusting, parrots, missing lips, scar growths, as I said, even with a barbless only rule. 3hour Midweek matches could be won with over 100lb!

 

As the carp grew, from single to double figures the tackle loss increased, pole floats and rigs in surrounding trees, or occasionally a nice piece of broken carbon decorating the bank.

 

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Some good views and opinions here and taken on board mabey i was abit over zelouse with the test curve thing and i no when to hold my hands up when im wrong.

My thinking was with a stiffer top section the action is stiffer when the fish lunges the preassure would be more on the line as the stiffer top section didnt have enuff action in it ... i thort the softer section would soak up the lunges and put less preassure on the line because of the softer action but from the posts i see this is wrong.

I agree with big common the heavier gear will give you more control and will get the fish in quicker and that connot be a bad thing and yes there will always be a snag no matter where you fish.

The only thing i dnt agree with is calling people sheep this is a forum to dicuss fishing , views and opinoins are shared and some you will and wont agree with them ... slating and name calling is not needed and adds nothing to the topic in question thoe they mabey your view and opinion sometimes they are better kept to yourself if they add nothing constructive.

 

Edited by DEANO30

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2 hours ago, salokcinnodrog said:

No, I don't like seeing 'big' carp targeted using a pole, especially during matches.

The anglers is trying to get the fish in as quickly as possible, the hook may be anywhere in the mouth, whereas a carp rig is usually designed to hook bottom lip, on a pole the line may cut into the cheek, the lip, pretty much anywhere in the mouth as it turns. With our carp rigs, the hooklink line is not often exiting the mouth in the cheek scissors. The high pressure of the pole may cause that line to cut the flesh. The pole is trying to lift the fish up in the water.

 

On 'match' style waters, constant recapture (with any tackle), means the carp do not get the chance for hook marks to heal, continual rehooking means mouth damage, even using barbless hooks.

 

A water local to me used to be a match pole paradise carp water. The state of the fishes mouthes was disgusting, parrots, missing lips, scar growths, as I said, even with a barbless only rule. 3hour Midweek matches could be won with over 100lb!

 

As the carp grew, from single to double figures the tackle loss increased, pole floats and rigs in surrounding trees, or occasionally a nice piece of broken carbon decorating the bank.

 

ah!! i now see the reason for your personal dislike Nick, almost every time you have used the word 'pole' you proceed it with the word 'match'.

you are talking about a completely different beast, and a completely different angling mindset.

match poles and carp poles are similar only in name and shape and  built in different ways to give completely different playing action,

1) if you are taking carp on a pole you can accurately target a fish so you would be a raging idiot to target a fish of over 20lb IMO

2) using a pole for carp is the same as freelining a mixer with one major difference so why the hell would you need a float?

3) the hook hold will be exactly the same as you would get while freelining

4) you dont hold the pole up with carp (if you know what you are doing) you actually do the opposite, as soon as you get the hook hold you draw back two sections and then drop the pole tip under the surface in the opposite direction to the run and use the force of the water on the pole to assist in stopping the charge, therefore you have the cushioning of the elastic, the pole, the water and the anglers working of the pole to prevent any damage to the fish.

this chap (not bad for a match angler) gives a reasonably good demo of how to do it.

just leave off the float and fish on the top.

see how he drops the tail end off to get the proper control, although his technique is not absolutely correct he  has got the idea.

keeping the pole tip low to the water (whereas i would have been under the surface) and the action opposing the run he soon brings the carp to the net leaving it plenty of energy to swim away after.

a 25lb carp on the pole and not bad for a frenchman :lol:

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I think that there are a lot of assumptions by carp anglers over the way match lads fish.. yup they could learn a lot about fish care, but saying constant recapture causes mouth damage and laying it soley at the feet of match lads is inflammatory... us carpers are just as responsible for mouth damage as any other group... and as Cyborx says, the way match anglers play fish is different to the way Gordon states... and as a case in point, carpers more often than not play fish with the rod upright... try keeping the rod low to the water and see how easy the fish comes in it uses less pressure and stresses the fish less.... I think rather than slagging off one group of anglers whilst holding yourselves up as holier than thou is rather self serving to be honest... when education is the key, and by that I mean on BOTH sides of the coin... both codes could learn a hell of a lot from each other

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2 hours ago, bluelabel said:

I think that there are a lot of assumptions by carp anglers over the way match lads fish.. yup they could learn a lot about fish care, but saying constant recapture causes mouth damage and laying it soley at the feet of match lads is inflammatory... us carpers are just as responsible for mouth damage as any other group... and as Cyborx says, the way match anglers play fish is different to the way Gordon states... and as a case in point, carpers more often than not play fish with the rod upright... try keeping the rod low to the water and see how easy the fish comes in it uses less pressure and stresses the fish less.... I think rather than slagging off one group of anglers whilst holding yourselves up as holier than thou is rather self serving to be honest... when education is the key, and by that I mean on BOTH sides of the coin... both codes could learn a hell of a lot from each other

without wanting to start a flame war Blue, you may have my post a little wrong.

just like Nick i have a dislike for 'match anglers' in the strict meaning of the term, if you go to a lake and see Joe Bloggs on peg one sitting on his box with his pole out in front he is a pleasure angler and as such he has the time and inclination to treat the fish with reverence and respect, on saturday morning Joe turns up for the draw for the club match, draws peg one and the whistle blows,,, Joe is no longer Joe he is the MATCH ANGLER with a completely different mindset, to get as many fish in his net as possible before the whistle goes again and that is the difference.

i have yet to see a match angler display any compassion for the fish on his hook, i have seen so called 'reputable' anglers tear the hook out from a deep hooked fish as it was quicker than disgorging, have you ever seen an angler 'flip' the fish off the hook? i have and only in two situations, one a match and the other on a sea fishing trip by the boat operator who also wants to clear the hook asap.

a pleasure angler after small quarry or a carp angler are probably not so far apart but when either of them are in a match situation then only one thing counts, weight, weight and more weight as that is what wins.

the words above are NOT assumptions or misconception but actual observations.

personally, as far as rod position and retrieving carp i keep my rod low and to the side opposite the run until the last few feet as this brings the line down in line with the carp and minimizes strain on the mouth (imo) you only need to get the head up at the net init :lol:

as far as the 'holier than thou' attitude from some carpers, as a group of people with the same aspirations carpers can be among the worst of them, it does seem that as the sun goes down then for some so does the good sense thermometer, beer gets guzzled and the odd spliff finds its way round and brains go to bed, this as i see it also seems to be the preserve of the carp angler so no stones thrown there then eh!!

the way i see it is good person=good angler for the most part but a person that has no respect for others will have little or no respect for a slimy fish especially when in competition with like minded people.

as said at the start, this is not the start of a flame war or pointed at any particular person so be warned, it is purely my own opinion so if this post inflames your ire then you have no one to blame but yourselves. take from it as you will :lol:

Jon

Edited by cyborx

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Cyborx.... what I was trying to say in my last post  is, that rather than some folk slagging match anglers off and trying to take a moral high ground, that ALL anglers should put the welfare of the fish first....

 

Now, my original post didn't mention using poles.... Far from it.... it was about carp angling gear being heavier than it need be for certain types of water and the possible benefits of using lighter gear on some commercials rather than the ubiquitous 3lb+ rods and big pits on a 3 acre commy.... I'm reckoning a 1.75lb barbel rod and 8lb line in a nice clear water, where a high double to 20lb (ish) is the norm (going on the premise that I took a 16lb 4oz Common on a setup not unlike that a few weeks ago)

 

The thread seems to have degenerated into a Match V Carp angler row and that's not what I wanted to promote... there is a benefit to using lighter gear.... but .... I'm not so naive to use it where inappropriate... Hell, being an old gimmer, I've been fishing probably a lot longer than some of you guys have been on this planet, (56 years at the last count, and I'm 59 in a few weeks) I'm not exactly a beginner at this game:D

 

now lets all chill and play nice:D8):x

 

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