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bluelabel

Match Versus Specimen Stylee

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Okay... so you pile up to a commercial... no real depth, no snags, no real features (like many of the commercials I've seen) and you set up shop after looking for signs of the fish....

You cast out with your 3.00lb rods, with 15lb line, on big pits, size six Curveshank, and boilie traps (am I painting a familiar picture yet?)

And then you notice a bit of a commotion on another bank... you see a lad with a match tackle box and a feeder rod with a hefty curve in it... he's fishing an 11' method feeder rod a  size 12 hook, on 8lb hi-tech line,  10mm wafter on a 400size match reel... and pulls in a proper lump (and they go even lighter in the really cold weather) now I dunno about you guys, but sometimes I reckon we go carping SEVERELY overgunned for the water...

The reason for this change of heart...? Well In March I fished a match at Fennes Fishery in Braintree.... the day went badly with only 6lbs of small skimmers until about 30 mins to go.... I lobbed out a feeder rod with exactly the gear I described... the tip rapped round after about 30 seconds and I connected with a lumpy carp....

Now I don't expect this to happen every time I cast out, but the resulting fish was a 16lb 4oz Common, the fish put up a good scrap on light gear and after a few minutes duking it out, I bundled it into a waiting net (weighed and released immediately) (I won the match by 1oz with 22lb 4oz)

Now I am under no illusions that this is the way to fish all the time, but I really do think that in certain situations we go in waaay too heavy

Maybe.... just maybe the match guys have the right idea... I'm swapping my 15lb mainlines for 8lb HyperSensor ASAP and giving it a go with my 1.75lb Barbel rods....

 

 

 

Edited by bluelabel
(spelling)

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Fennes is just up the road from me, I think fish stocks play a huge part in how we attack things and in all honesty if I was going to fish fennes I'd leave the carp gear at home and fish it with a waggler rod and float. 

But fiahing the waters I'm fishing with the size fish that are in them I'd rather have my 3lb and 15lb gear all day long. Whilst I was at my lakes Tuesday afternoon the big girl came out at just over 46lb.....although possible on lighter gear I wouldn't want to chance it personally 

edit to add :-I have fished it with a 2lb 6ft stalking rod with ten lb Line and had my first fish from their in that gear a 15lb 7oz common was Great fun 

Edited by spr1985

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Well there's the rub....  Like you, I'd not use gear as light as that on a water that held big girls like that.....  but I did say that I'd only use it in certain situations

 eg: only on waters with no snags no real depth ...

 

(given the fact that most bailiffs never check yer gear anyway I may try it out on some of my local puddles just to compare my results)

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Years ago I started a thread called 'Overgunned' which covered fishing with lighter tackle than many of us use.

On a mixed fishery I don't think that carp gear is needed, unless you are specifically targeting big carp, and even then...

If the size of the largest carp in the lake is say mid double figures, then why use carp gear? A decent Avon or heavy ledger rod will tame these beasts. It may take time, but carefully balanced tackle will land them.

Add to that catching other species, like roach, perch, bream etc will teach more than just sitting for carp....

 

 

 

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I dont really think its the "being overgunned", I think its due to the fact that other types of fishing are just more active. With a method feeder your probably casting every 10/20 minutes depending on what the actions like. I Cant count the amount of times i have gone on a lake few of guys carping with 2 rods, I have turned up with a quiver tip and out caught them. I know a guy fishing Layer pits that also just used 2 method feeders on 2 little carp rods and smashed that place up.

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22 hours ago, Ginger9991 said:

I dont really think its the "being overgunned", I think its due to the fact that other types of fishing are just more active. With a method feeder your probably casting every 10/20 minutes depending on what the actions like. I Cant count the amount of times i have gone on a lake few of guys carping with 2 rods, I have turned up with a quiver tip and out caught them. I know a guy fishing Layer pits that also just used 2 method feeders on 2 little carp rods and smashed that place up.

They love a spod/spomb on layer...... dinner bell, same for method feeder. But nice to hear about someone doing things slightly differently to the rest.

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I have to say, for the most part, I don't think people are sheep for doing what the next guy does. Most of the common methods have been proven, over time, to be successful in hooking and landing fish. These methods haven't been plucked out of thin air, they have evolved. The trouble is, once something has evolved to the point where it can't really be bettered, then there is no need to change things . And everyone catches up and ends up doing the same, it's common sense.

I wouldn't slate a carpenter for using a certain hammer or saw to do a certain job, when he is using the right tools for the job. Just because every other chippy is doing the same.

Bait application is key. If you get them feeding in the right manner, you don't need to worry too much about, rigs and breaking strains. Roach, Tench Bream, all get caught on 15lb bs and size 6 hooks, no need to scale down.

When you start to scale down, you are not doing anything different. You are going back in time to a place where we all got smashed up now and then for being under gunned. As this is a carp forum, I am of course referring to hooking and landing carp.

Fished out a couple of dead ones recently, nothing to do with rigs or tackle, most probably otters..... 3 in total so far. One more and that's around 10% of the stock..... Just gets me thinking how easy it is for stock numbers to drop.

Personally, I would rather sacrifice a bite or two and make sure I've got the right kit to land a fish as quickly as possible and get it back safely.........

25 minute fights ain't the norm, should imagine it more stressful to a fish, resulting in landing something without an ounce of energy left.

Not having a dig at anyone in person, just not being a sheep, in respect to this thread.

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Mate, i was having a conversation yesterday about mouth damage, there is no light gear on a couple of lakes i fish, but the problem is the fish are bullied to quickly because of the snags and resulting mouth damage is quite evident, i have seen some of the stuff that is present in the commies due to frequency of capture, quite similar, the heavy tackle and speed of landing is just as damaging, a fish played on balanced tackle is less likely to be harmed than one dragged in on tow rope, i use 15 pound braid bottom so i am guilty as anyone but the heavy tackle is not an auto choice and never should be.

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4 hours ago, Big Common said:

Personally, I would rather sacrifice a bite or two and make sure I've got the right kit to land a fish as quickly as possible and get it back safely.........

25 minute fights ain't the norm, should imagine it more stressful to a fish, resulting in landing something without an ounce of energy left.

The 16lb 4oz common I caught was landed on light gear (8lb hi-tech hooklink, 8lb Hyper-Sensor main) in just a few minutes, so I hardly think that every fight on light gear is going  to take 25+ minutes to land... it also went back strong as an ox (and we all know how common's fight)

 

I think a little perspective is needed... I'm not advocating going carping with 3lb line and a 2lb hooklink here.... just reasoning that some of the gear we use for carping is hugely overgunned, and I have to ask myself why...? is it because it's what we are confident in it....? or is it because that's what the bloke on the telly says to use....

Look at some of the match fishing programs on the box (there's a couple) and see what can be landed quickly on lighter gear, you may be surprised

 

My Carp reels & spare spools are loaded with 12lb & 15lb Hypersensor... but the 15lb will be giving way to some 8 or 10lb in the near future... I really don't think that the heavy gear is doing us any favours...

Just my opinion like....8)

 

Tight lines

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Like I said, I wasn't having a go at anyone in particular....... I can treat fresh damage to a fish, which, lets be honest, is unavoidable however we fish. But in my opinion , more avoidable with a larger hook...My argument would be that light lines or hooklinks will have more of a cheese wire effect and cut deep into the corners of the mouth leaving a nice groove for future hooklinks to sit in and cause more damage and so on.......

Most commies were once match waters where pasties grew bigger and owners want to cash in and create day ticket carp venues, I wager that a lot of the damage seen on these fish was done by the match anglers before hand. Thin gauge hooks like razor blades and line like cheese wire at a time when these fish were pushing doubles.

This is why carp fishing is a branch of it's own. It's not a bite a chuck........

If you want more bites per hour, then fish for other species.

And why bother to scale down your mainline when its only the last few feet that matter for the most part?

Seriously, I'm all ears... If you can give me a sensible reason as to why people should scale down, please do. I can think of many reasons why I think it's a no no.

If it's a good fight on light gear you want, take up fly fishing, you can fight a trout to within an inch of it's life and then knock it on the head and eat it.

And yes...... I did get up on the wrong side of the bed today :)

 

" Doing us any favours"....... That's the whole point, it's not about us. It's about the fish.

Edited by Big Common

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I use 15lb main line because I know it'll withstand abrasion. I also use a leadfree leader for the same reason. I don't want to lose a fish and have it trailing anything because my line got snapped or cut off. Simple as that. There will be times when it happens regardless, but that's yet to happen to me since fishing like this. 

But I'm the kind of guy that will get in and free a snagged fish if I really need to (and it's safe of course) I also use barbed hooks to reduce mouth damage but let's not get in to that debate. 

It really depends on where you fish. On a gravel or brick pit if you're fishing with anything lower than 12lb mainline you are irresponsible IMO. Just asking to be cut off. If you're fishing a no snag hole then light gear will work fine. As there is no danger. But even most day tickets have lilies, reeds, weedbeds.  

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1 hour ago, greekskii said:

If you're fishing a no snag hole then light gear will work fine.

 

On 5/17/2017 at 20:43, bluelabel said:

Okay... so you pile up to a commercial... no real depth, no snags, no real features (like many of the commercials I've seen)

S'wot I said...!

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10 hours ago, Big Common said:

I have to say, for the most part, I don't think people are sheep for doing what the next guy does. Most of the common methods have been proven, over time, to be successful in hooking and landing fish. These methods haven't been plucked out of thin air, they have evolved. The trouble is, once something has evolved to the point where it can't really be bettered, then there is no need to change things . And everyone catches up and ends up doing the same, it's common sense.

I wouldn't slate a carpenter for using a certain hammer or saw to do a certain job, when he is using the right tools for the job. Just because every other chippy is doing the same.

Bait application is key. If you get them feeding in the right manner, you don't need to worry too much about, rigs and breaking strains. Roach, Tench Bream, all get caught on 15lb bs and size 6 hooks, no need to scale down.

When you start to scale down, you are not doing anything different. You are going back in time to a place where we all got smashed up now and then for being under gunned. As this is a carp forum, I am of course referring to hooking and landing carp.

Fished out a couple of dead ones recently, nothing to do with rigs or tackle, most probably otters..... 3 in total so far. One more and that's around 10% of the stock..... Just gets me thinking how easy it is for stock numbers to drop.

Personally, I would rather sacrifice a bite or two and make sure I've got the right kit to land a fish as quickly as possible and get it back safely.........

25 minute fights ain't the norm, should imagine it more stressful to a fish, resulting in landing something without an ounce of energy left.

Not having a dig at anyone in person, just not being a sheep, in respect to this thread.

I would quote Greekski's post as well, but was too late.

I made the point on the 'Overgunned' thread how without thinking I had left 12lb line on in lilies at either Earith or Taverham, and still didn't lose a fish. I did however lose a couple on an 18lb line that was supposedly the dogs danglies by a major tackle manufacturer, where the abrasion resistance was absolutely kacke. 

For various reasons I do always now test my lines before I actually fish with them, and like Tackle Box tests I have found varying results. The diameter vs breaking strain, the abrasion resistance, what knots work best with any line.

 

On Brackens I was using 15lb line, and hooked a fish a couple of metres from my rod tip at ten past eight in the evening. The bailiff heard the run, and eventually netted the carp at nine!

One heck of a scrap from a 20lb common.

 

On another lake I was using I think 8lb mainline, to a 6 or 7lb hooklink for floater fishing, and near lilies. I did not expect a 20lb carp to take the dog biscuit. My Avon road was bent double, the fight took around 15minutes, less than many fights I have had on heavier tackle and I did a rather nice ghostie common that went over 20lb.

 

I do think that we have gotten to the stage that we expect to use heavier tackle rather than lighter, no ifs, no buts, it's now 15lb to start with, yet years ago, probably 80's it was 8lb to start, and 11lb if it was snaggy; Sylcast, almost impossible to break in 11lb!

 

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4 hours ago, Big Common said:

My argument would be that light lines or hooklinks will have more of a cheese wire effect and cut deep into the corners of the mouth leaving a nice groove for future hooklinks to sit in and cause more damage and so on.......

Seriously, I'm all ears... If you can give me a sensible reason as to why people should scale down, please do. I can think of many reasons why I think it's a no.

The 2 biggest things to mouth damage is test curves and uncoated braided hooklinks 

With a lighter test curve the rod soakes up the lunges all these sea rods i see people using soak up nothing.

With my light test curve rod i use a mono mainline that has a much less cheese wire effect than braid the most popular hooklink on the market normally paired with a couple of sea rods for ultimate mouth ripping combo.

Hooking them in the scissors is the real danger no matter what you are using the chances of causing damage goes up.

And if you are struggling with mouth damage dont forget to follow the fishery rules that where created by the tooth fairy when she last visited.

 

 

 

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It all sounds fine in this mythical lake with no snags, I've yet to find one....... Even a dorsal fin can nick your line. All I'm saying is, if you fish for powerful large fish like carp, that can surge under the tip, then it's better to be over gunned than under gunned.

If I lose a fish to a break off. I want to be able to think afterwards that I did all I could to land it safely. I'm living in the real world here. How many lakes do you know with absolutely no snags or weed, I don't no any, and it's not something I'd just presume. You can't apply steady pressure on light gear, with thin supple line and a lighter rod tip. Too much stretch and spring. 

We've all heard stories of match men landing 20lb fish on pole gear. But does that make it right to fish for carp with a pole?

Heavy gear for heavy fish. Learning to fish with and present heavier tackle is a skill in itself imo. Rig concealment and rig mechanics are hard to get right all of the time. Get it right, with the right bait application, then you probably get a result. It's called carp angling lol.

I must say though, that I do think that there are a lot of anglers that are a bit heavy on the rod and reel side of things. Big pit reels are for big pits, not necessary for club lakes. I do prefer a 3lb tc to a 2.75tc, just to be able to bully a fish away from anything nasty.

I started last years fishing with some very old 3lb tc rods, that had softened over the years to probably around 2.5tc. I remember hooking two fish that I literally could do nothing with. The rod hooped over, giving both fish the extra couple of feet to bury themselves in thick weed. The rods just didn';t have the power required to gain control quickly enough. Both fish lost. My fault entirely for being under gunned.

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I no longer fish carp puddles but on a local club pond I use pro logic 9ft rods,10lb line and some old Shimanos.  It's perhaps an acre in size, probably less and the fish love under the tree margins. Rods are 2.5tc.  I wasn't aware at the time but the company also do 8ft 2tc rods which I would have got. I once saw some carpers with big pits etc and bags of boilies perhaps they're brain dead,perhaps that's the only kit they own. 

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7 hours ago, DEANO30 said:

The 2 biggest things to mouth damage is test curves and uncoated braided hooklinks 

With a lighter test curve the rod soakes up the lunges all these sea rods i see people using soak up nothing.

With my light test curve rod i use a mono mainline that has a much less cheese wire effect than braid the most popular hooklink on the market normally paired with a couple of sea rods for ultimate mouth ripping combo.

Hooking them in the scissors is the real danger no matter what you are using the chances of causing damage goes up.

And if you are struggling with mouth damage dont forget to follow the fishery rules that where created by the tooth fairy when she last visited.

 

 

 

What a load of rubbish.... there seems to be a lot of talk of sheep on here copying the crowd, the same can apply to people listening to utter nonsense & not talking from there own experience. 

I have rods ranging from 1.75 to 3.5 none of them cause mouth damage. 

I also go sea fishing with ( sea rods ) oh guess what no mouth damage! 

Don't blame the kit blame the angler .

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14 minutes ago, chillfactor said:

Don't blame the kit blame the angler .

Never a truer word spoken. 

If your rigs work well you'll be hooking them bottom lip not the scissors. 

If you know how to play a fish mouth damage shouldn't be an issue. 

I landed a mid double carp from a river on 18lb mainline straight through to a size 4 barbed hook. It charged through multiple lily beds. Did it have mouth damage? Nope.  

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8 hours ago, Big Common said:

It all sounds fine in this mythical lake with no snags, I've yet to find one....... Even a dorsal fin can nick your line. All I'm saying is, if you fish for powerful large fish like carp, that can surge under the tip, then it's better to be over gunned than under gunned.

If I lose a fish to a break off. I want to be able to think afterwards that I did all I could to land it safely. I'm living in the real world here. How many lakes do you know with absolutely no snags or weed, I don't no any, and it's not something I'd just presume. You can't apply steady pressure on light gear, with thin supple line and a lighter rod tip. Too much stretch and spring. 

We've all heard stories of match men landing 20lb fish on pole gear. But does that make it right to fish for carp with a pole?

Heavy gear for heavy fish. Learning to fish with and present heavier tackle is a skill in itself imo. Rig concealment and rig mechanics are hard to get right all of the time. Get it right, with the right bait application, then you probably get a result. It's called carp angling lol.

I must say though, that I do think that there are a lot of anglers that are a bit heavy on the rod and reel side of things. Big pit reels are for big pits, not necessary for club lakes. I do prefer a 3lb tc to a 2.75tc, just to be able to bully a fish away from anything nasty.

I started last years fishing with some very old 3lb tc rods, that had softened over the years to probably around 2.5tc. I remember hooking two fish that I literally could do nothing with. The rod hooped over, giving both fish the extra couple of feet to bury themselves in thick weed. The rods just didn';t have the power required to gain control quickly enough. Both fish lost. My fault entirely for being under gunned.

Sorry Mate, 

Its not the test curve that is the rods 'power', the test curve is mostly the rods casting ability. A through action rod with a lighter test curve can be a better fish playing tool than a heavy tip actioned high test curve rod. The higher test curve tod at 'high pressure' is more likely to cause hookpulls or even tackle breakage than the through actioned rod.

 

It is knowing your tackle and how to use it.

 

I am not sure braid as a hooklink material is damaging the carps mouth, it is down to types of braid. A mainline braid is totally different from a hooklink braid, and hooklink braids are made of thicker fibres which are less cutting than the mainline Kevlar, Dyneema or whatever, although Drennan do make one which I would avoid.

Also because of the diameter in relation to breaking strain, many hooklink braids may actually be 25lb as opposed to say 15lb because the finer diameter would cut.

I have used braided hooklinks for years, from coated to uncoated, Multistrand, Merlin, Silkworm, Snakebite, Snakeskin, pretty much almost every Kryston hooklink material, and not seen any mouth damage from them, although 15lb is the absolute minimum I use.

Again, I think we head into the angler knowledge and sometimes tackle manufacturer 'grey area', because manufacturers can't guarantee how or where tackle is used, and newcomers, ignorance, not caring, or not understanding aren't there.

 

Poles for carp fishing, don't get me started!

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Any1 who knows anything about playing fish should know that it not rod alone that absorbs a sudden charge from a fish

Your rod should be an extention of your arm and most of the pressure from a run  should be taken in the elbow and clutch settings on your reel

I'm not saying test curve doesnt make a difference but it's a minimal difference if you know what your doing and if your walking the bank and see some1 doing it wrong educate them

 

Edited by harpz_31

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