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I must admit I have been slightly puzzled of late, I've seen many recipes of boilies over the years, I've made a few myself, but we seem to be solely thinking about the nutritional profile of a bait at the cost of palatability.

I see this ingredient included that ingredient included without any real thought going into the attractor profile.

To me the attractor profile should be at the very top of your list, because without a fish liking it or being attracted to it in the first place renders a bait useless.

I have chatted about this a number of times with a close friend of mine who I hold in high regard as far as bait construction is concerned and he is of the same opinion.

We both likened some of these formulas to the 80's health food drinks. Absolutely packed with everything we need but they tasted disgusting. Which is fine for a human because we are able to make a conscious choice, that's what separates us from the animal kingdom, but as far as animals are concerned, you stand very little chance of getting any interest at all if your bait isn't attractive in the first place.

Another misconception is the phrase Food Recognition. It doesn't mean a carp bases a desicion on recognising a certain food or ingredient. The reaction is caused by a much more natural trigger. We as humans experience the very same thing with, watering mouths, grumbling guts and just a general feeling of hunger.

It's this natural reaction that stirs/triggers a fish into investigating a scent trail. 

Sauces aren't used anywhere near enough, which is such a shame because some of them are much more attractive than you realise and cover taste as well as smell senses.

Oyster Sauce, Fish Sauce, Spicy Sauce, Maggi, Curry Powder, the list is endless and should be explored.

I'm no expert on the matter but the very premise of making a bait attractive seems to be getting lost somewhere along road.

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I don't think we can compare human tastes (80's health drinks....) to that of a carp. On it's day, a carp will choose to eat bloodworm over anything we could possibly offer it. If we're talking about attraction then let's look at what bloodworms offer; pretty much nothing other than aminos, and the investigation trigger is those aminos as a discharge i.e bloodworm poo. Therefore IMO these protein rich ingredients we use make way more sense than trying to influence palatability or attractor profile in an attempt to make a bait 'taste' or 'smell' nice to a carp.

If I rolled my own bait, I wouldn't use one single flavour or ingredient intended to influence palatability. Rather I'd use binding/rolling agents, smash it full of high quality fishmeals, liquid content would be a fish or liver protein hydroslate, and add an activator and a decent oil. It'd smell rank and cost a fortune but I'd bet it'd out-fish any bait we've ever used.

13 hours ago, Gazlaaar said:

Oyster Sauce, Fish Sauce, Spicy Sauce, Maggi, Curry Powder, the list is endless and should be explored.

I think poor baits or high attract baits can maybe be improved by such additives but a decent food bait doesn't need them. Don't get me wrong, you'll see me messing about with them regularly, but it's more out of boredom than anything (I don't believe they can make a bait worse).

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13 hours ago, Gazlaaar said:

Oyster Sauce, Fish Sauce, Spicy Sauce, Maggi, Curry Powder, the list is endless and should be explored.

I love messing with sauces and things. Especially Maggi and fish sauce. As yonny said, a good bait wont need them but it wont do it harm either by soaking them in it or whatever. 

13 hours ago, Gazlaaar said:

I'm no expert on the matter but the very premise of making a bait attractive seems to be getting lost somewhere along road.

I think most bait companies try to catch the angler, not the fish. What we smell and what a carp smells is not the same at all. I always taste my bait to see how I like it, if its good enough for me then a fish must like it. I got a small sample of a first test batch of bait the other day. I couldnt stop eating it, neither could the guy's dog...the dog actually went mental looking for more! Must be a good sign in my eyes. 

Although I think im becoming half fish because I keep opening n-butryic and pineapple pop ups and having a smell because I love it. I also love the monster crab and plum boilies I used to use and they hum...even the guy making them hates the smell! 

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Actually fellas, it' not aminos that attract fish to beds of bloodworm. As bloodworm's mature they release hormones in the shape of ammonia just before they change into nymphs, it's this change that attracts fish.

I know a few bait guys are just starting to experiment with ammonia and waste products and looking at these compounds and there attractive ability. 

You'll already see similar compounds in n butyric acid.

 

 

Edited by Gazlaaar

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1 hour ago, greekskii said:

I love messing with sauces and things. Especially Maggi and fish sauce. As yonny said, a good bait wont need them but it wont do it harm either by soaking them in it or whatever. 

I think most bait companies try to catch the angler, not the fish. What we smell and what a carp smells is not the same at all. I always taste my bait to see how I like it, if its good enough for me then a fish must like it. I got a small sample of a first test batch of bait the other day. I couldnt stop eating it, neither could the guy's dog...the dog actually went mental looking for more! Must be a good sign in my eyes. 

Although I think im becoming half fish because I keep opening n-butryic and pineapple pop ups and having a smell because I love it. I also love the monster crab and plum boilies I used to use and they hum...even the guy making them hates the smell! 

I'm not suggesting for one minute that our tastes are the same but the parallel is exact in many ways. 

If a carp doesn't get interested in the first place then a nutritional bait, however nutritional it is, is useless. The attractor package has to be right and carefully thought about to match the ingredients used to get the balance.

The 80's super duper drink was a classic example of something being really good but tasting awful. 

Carp have a more primitive sensory system and on first inspection do not know whether a food item is good or not. A lot of anglers seem to forget that carp use their mouths to sample, by which point a good rig should of worked, personally I think there's too much emphasis put into making baits as nutritional as possible and other factors get over looked, missing the point as it were.

It's one of the reasons I like using evaporated milk, it's full of fats and sugars and it's very soluble in water. 

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Scent From Hell by Baitworks is a strange one, there isn't a strong ammonia smell to it but what ever it is is very similar to ammonia, awful stuff you wouldn't want to spill that on you kit.

My dog loves a boilie or two, i think his favourite was one by CC Moor, NRG i think it was called they stopped doing it when they brought their Tuna bait out, the NRG was packed with GLM, the dog loves that stuff.

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1 hour ago, Gazlaaar said:

As bloodworm's mature they release hormones in the shape of ammonia just before they change into nymphs, it's this change that attracts fish.

I don't buy that dude. As far as I'm aware bloodworms pupate i.e. there's no such thing as a bloodworm/midge nymph. They're released as winged adults.

Although, I agree my post didn't cover the whole picture. I think they do release ammonia (all of the time, not juts during or prior to any change), aminos, and of course tiny electrical signals too, all of which serve to attract.

16 minutes ago, Carpbell_ll said:

Scent From Hell by Baitworks

Butyric acid.....

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I forgot to add my liquid flavours to my mix once and worried about it - just basemix, eggs, betaine powder and salmon oil.

After ringing the company to talk about it they said it will be just as effective.

Gotta say it was the best bait I'd ever used, smashed it!

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1 hour ago, Carpbell_ll said:

My dog loves a boilie or two, i think his favourite was one by CC Moor, NRG i think it was called they stopped doing it when they brought their Tuna bait out, the NRG was packed with GLM, the dog loves that stuff.

NRG was a Mainline creation it stood for "New Recipe Grange" it was quite shortlived and stank... it had a bit of a curry waft about it, but the bait dip dyed everything in sight a nasty smelly yellow... I had a few fish on it, but it never set the world alight...  Nash's IC1 was the same... a light curry waft and I did well initially but it soon lost effectiveness... it worked well with a snowman rig for a while and then that petered out...

 

most creatures are either sight or scent feeders....  and like us they are triggered by certain smells... with humans it's Chocolate , Oranges,  Salt and Vinegar on chips... you always (well I do anyway) get a feeding response when I smell certain foodstuffs and it's the same with animals, the feeding response can be triggered by certain scents, it's finding the right one...  that said I wonder what scent Daphnia  gives off...?

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9 minutes ago, bluelabel said:

...  that said I wonder what scent Daphnia  gives off...?

Is it smell in any natural food source that attracts the carp?  Thought it was some sort of static electricity from their movement

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1 hour ago, yonny said:

I don't buy that dude. As far as I'm aware bloodworms pupate i.e. there's no such thing as a bloodworm/midge nymph. They're released as winged adults.

Although, I agree my post didn't cover the whole picture. I think they do release ammonia (all of the time, not juts during or prior to any change), aminos, and of course tiny electrical signals too, all of which serve to attract.

Butyric acid.....

Pupa, Larva, nymph there's no real difference apart from the ectoskeleton.

The reason I believe the ammonia release is connected to the emerging bloodworm, is because if it was released all of the time bloodworm beds would be constantly hammered and there wouldn't be any left to emerge. Which is why I believe it's a one off event just as the bloodworm reaches maturity and it's ripeness.

 

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5 minutes ago, kevtaylor said:

We smell things in the air, whereas fish taste things in the water - so why are we smelling stuff like it has a bearing on things?

 

That's the problem Kev, water borne and air borne substances work in a different way. I'm talking about the gustatory sense, the more natural sense. The Recognition response, we get mouth watering, gut feelings, I would guess fish respond in pretty much the same way.

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All these flavours are prob nonsense when you think about it, they only smell good or bad to us in the air, designed to catch us - ohh its chocolate - that'll be good!!!!!!!!

There might not be any smell underwater and could taste like turd to them.

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3 minutes ago, Gazlaaar said:

 The Recognition response, we get mouth watering, gut feelings, I would guess fish respond in pretty much the same way.

I've been looking at baits made up from pretty much all natural freshwater insects.  Interesting stuff

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I believe a lot of flavours are what you say Kev, nonsense, but there are some that do indeed trigger responses in fish. Look at tutti frutti, the originals nothing more than a very simple attractor bait, John bakers plum, he went through hundreds of variations before he found one that worked. Geoff Kemp, hutches scopex, they all worked.

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34 minutes ago, bluelabel said:

NRG was a Mainline creation it stood for "New Recipe Grange" it was quite shortlived and stank... it had a bit of a curry waft about it, but the bait dip dyed everything in sight a nasty smelly yellow... I had a few fish on it, but it never set the world alight...  Nash's IC1 was the same... a light curry waft and I did well initially but it soon lost effectiveness... it worked well with a snowman rig for a while and then that petered out...

 

most creatures are either sight or scent feeders....  and like us they are triggered by certain smells... with humans it's Chocolate , Oranges,  Salt and Vinegar on chips... you always (well I do anyway) get a feeding response when I smell certain foodstuffs and it's the same with animals, the feeding response can be triggered by certain scents, it's finding the right one...  that said I wonder what scent Daphnia  gives off...?

Memory like a sieve me, it was cc moor N Gauge, the smell used to make me hungry when using it, certainly had a good feeding trigger to it.

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It also begs the question, why are tiger nuts so effective, they don't have a strong smell, evaporated milk, no real smell, corn, no real smell until you blend it up, there are loads of food items that have very little in the way of air borne smell, so it must be taste, and as carp are covered in taste buds, internally and externally, this must be a big factor in detection.

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2 hours ago, yonny said:

I don't buy that dude. As far as I'm aware bloodworms pupate i.e. there's no such thing as a bloodworm/midge nymph. They're released as winged adults.

Although, I agree my post didn't cover the whole picture. I think they do release ammonia (all of the time, not juts during or prior to any change), aminos, and of course tiny electrical signals too, all of which serve to attract.

Butyric acid.....

Butyric acid could well be part of it, but there is something very unusual too it i have not come across before, some sort of decomposition smell with out the sickly sweet smell, no way was i tasting it.

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All baits work OK if chucked in the right place at the right time, but is there something special in the baits you mention - probably not.

I'm looking for the answer to catching them when they are preoccupied on naturals because it seems nothing is as good or attractive, one day its a fly hatch, bloodworms another, snails, mussels, fry etc etc etc  There has to be a way of competing with this and if I do find it, I will rinse it proper before letting on what I've stumbled across lol

I've recently put a complete natural selection together, powders, liquids and naturals - its pretty crazy, some mad stuff in there and it cost a fortune but hopefully I will be onto something when I come to use it next autumn.

 

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2 minutes ago, Gazlaaar said:

It also begs the question, why are tiger nuts so effective, they don't have a strong smell, evaporated milk, no real smell, corn, no real smell until you blend it up, there are loads of food items that have very little in the way of air borne smell, so it must be taste, and as carp are covered in taste buds, internally and externally, this must be a big factor in detection.

100% bud, but you don't need to flavour something for a carp to taste/detect it.

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3 minutes ago, Gazlaaar said:

It also begs the question, why are tiger nuts so effective, they don't have a strong smell, evaporated milk, no real smell, corn, no real smell until you blend it up, there are loads of food items that have very little in the way of air borne smell, so it must be taste, and as carp are covered in taste buds, internally and externally, this must be a big factor in detection.

Its the sugars in tigers

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12 minutes ago, kevtaylor said:

All these flavours are prob nonsense when you think about it, they only smell good or bad to us in the air, designed to catch us - ohh its chocolate - that'll be good!!!!!!!!

There might not be any smell underwater and could taste like turd to them.

not on smell but the chemical make up of the flavours is the attractor. Look at one of the key components of maple flavour, fenugreek. a world class additive on its own. 

Each individual component of each flavour has its own chemical make up, the aminos in them, etc, etc. (im not a chemist) the fish wont smell plum...but they will be tasting and smelling something (they do smell things, they clearly have nostrils) but as you say @kevtaylor its more like tasting. But what we smell and they smell/taste likely varies massively. 

Everything is based on chemical make up for fish... some of the best baits have no flavours on them, the flavours are designed to catch the angler!! 

2 minutes ago, Gazlaaar said:

hey don't have a strong smell, evaporated milk, no real smell

not sure about that, after a day or two you can start to get a smell off it!

 

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2 minutes ago, greekskii said:

Everything is based on chemical make up for fish... 

Same with humans.... a smell is just chemicals interacting with our sensory organs.

We know carp can detect aminos, pH change, salinity, ammonia, and simple sugars. Any given flavour be it man made, natural, whatever, will influence at least one of those. But I don't think we need to bother.

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