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Highy

Dropping leads and it's impacts

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2 hours ago, Big Common said:

Think the pegs are to lock the lead clip (Death rig clip ) to the swivel ,so that the lead will discharge more easily with out the clip sliding about with the lead still attached.

Thought it was like the korda helisafe where you can insert a collar on so the lead doesnt come off 

but their version is a peg and you use pva if you want to dump the lead

 

thats the impression i got from it

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2 hours ago, framey said:

Thought it was like the korda helisafe where you can insert a collar on so the lead doesnt come off 

but their version is a peg and you use pva if you want to dump the lead

 

thats the impression i got from it

Yeah that's it. Same as the run rig kits I use. Lead only comes off if you are weeded. I get my leads back even reeling in quickly. I have in the past squished the lead swivel slightly so it drops out on the take. But careful reeling in has it back when I don't catch. 

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3 hours ago, Big Common said:

Well I've got to hold my hands up there after reading the file through and have a different view on things now... I guess that was the aim of the letter in the first place.

 

Personally this letter didn't change my opinion much at all. It's all based on total theory, no actual science or figures. Obviously we know lead is toxic and a bad but this letter is a joke. The box gives an example, and he then rights that his example is totally invalid because it's likely much much less than the figure he arrives at...also switching from imperial to metric is a bit unprofessional. No wonder the letter never made it to even the angling trust website (as far as I know)

I think every angler would use a lead free version if it was affordable and accessible. BUT I will not compromise fish safety by having to make an already expensive pursuit even more expensive. Pallatrax don't sell their stonze for under a pound so I wouldn't want to lose one every time I needed too. Jeez I'd have spent £10 during a session earlier this year on leads alone if that was the case! Also what if want a small weight for minimal disturbance?

The pollutant effect from lead is clearly minimal. Lead has been discharged in to waterways long before anglers started dropping leads all the time. Lead based gasoline, the coal industry, the industrial revolution, they used to use it when building houses for Christ sake. Ecosystems still thrive in lakes that have seen leads being dropped for decades. Water companies don't seem to complain about stripping lead out to make water drinkable. Livestock drink from the watercourses and don't get poisoned by lead. We have a lot of arsenic imbedded deep in to silt in our area due to the boot and shoe industry, as a by product of the leather processes. I've had countless sedmient samples done and it's never been a problem.

There are much more pressing concerns about pollutants that have much more impact. Phosphates for one, oestrogen another. 

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1 hour ago, Big Common said:

 I think a lot of what's happened is that, dropping leads was done , originally for a couple of months a season, as needed when the weed was up. Now it has become the norm, for some, all year round.

Agree on that! It's like a fashion almost. Drop the lead when the fish fish gets weeded or something. On the take if you are fishing amongst/near it or near snags or whatever. BUT only when you need too. Now we are in to winter and weed and lilies have died back I stick to 1oz leads. Would have had the Same 3 all winter but I dropped one in the long grass yesterday. No chance of finding it! 

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19 hours ago, Gazlaaar said:

I suppose one answer could be Tungsten as it is a more dense material than lead and non toxic. I just wonder what the price difference would be for manufacture. Having said that, I'd happily pay a bit more as I don't readily dump leads anyway with the rigs I use.

dinsmores do a lead free range matey and there is always pallatrax stonez

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3 hours ago, greekskii said:

Agree on that! It's like a fashion almost. Drop the lead when the fish fish gets weeded or something. On the take if you are fishing amongst/near it or near snags or whatever. BUT only when you need too. Now we are in to winter and weed and lilies have died back I stick to 1oz leads. Would have had the Same 3 all winter but I dropped one in the long grass yesterday. No chance of finding it! 

thats all well and good Vic, when you are dropping the lead from a safety point of view, but what about the knobs that drop the lead because its 'carpy'?

i know of at least two lakes near me that i fish regular like and both have clean bottoms, one as it is a new lake with clay lining and one that was dredged last year as it was silted to within a couple of feet from the surface. on both lakes i have seen anglers who were set up for ejecting on a take, is that ok in your books or would you (like me) be concerned by it?

you cant class all lakes on your own experience as weed only grows in the right environment and dropping the lead is not needed all the time but i bet a good proportion of anglers do it as that is what is advocated by the manufacturers.

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18 minutes ago, cyborx said:

thats all well and good Vic, when you are dropping the lead from a safety point of view, but what about the knobs that drop the lead because its 'carpy'?

i know of at least two lakes near me that i fish regular like and both have clean bottoms, one as it is a new lake with clay lining and one that was dredged last year as it was silted to within a couple of feet from the surface. on both lakes i have seen anglers who were set up for ejecting on a take, is that ok in your books or would you (like me) be concerned by it?

you cant class all lakes on your own experience as weed only grows in the right environment and dropping the lead is not needed all the time but i bet a good proportion of anglers do it as that is what is advocated by the manufacturers.

Don't agree with that at all. 

Take the estate lake for example. No real weed. Although some new stuff was growing in September. No need to drop the lead. However there are lots of lilies. Even set up to drop the lead if weeded, lily pads don't allow that to happen as they aren't dense enough on the stems like a bed of Canadian. IMO dropping the lead on the take allow you to play the fish on the surface and let it crash it's on way through the pads... or you do what I do and wade out to them if they get snagged up. 

Thats a situation I can justify dropping the lead on the take in a pretty clear lake. 

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17 hours ago, greekskii said:

Personally this letter didn't change my opinion much at all. It's all based on total theory, no actual science or figures. Obviously we know lead is toxic and a bad but this letter is a joke. The box gives an example, and he then rights that his example is totally invalid because it's likely much much less than the figure he arrives at...also switching from imperial to metric is a bit unprofessional. No wonder the letter never made it to even the angling trust website (as far as I know)

I think every angler would use a lead free version if it was affordable and accessible. BUT I will not compromise fish safety by having to make an already expensive pursuit even more expensive. Pallatrax don't sell their stonze for under a pound so I wouldn't want to lose one every time I needed too. Jeez I'd have spent £10 during a session earlier this year on leads alone if that was the case! Also what if want a small weight for minimal disturbance?

The pollutant effect from lead is clearly minimal. Lead has been discharged in to waterways long before anglers started dropping leads all the time. Lead based gasoline, the coal industry, the industrial revolution, they used to use it when building houses for Christ sake. Ecosystems still thrive in lakes that have seen leads being dropped for decades. Water companies don't seem to complain about stripping lead out to make water drinkable. Livestock drink from the watercourses and don't get poisoned by lead. We have a lot of arsenic imbedded deep in to silt in our area due to the boot and shoe industry, as a by product of the leather processes. I've had countless sedmient samples done and it's never been a problem.

There are much more pressing concerns about pollutants that have much more impact. Phosphates for one, oestrogen another. 

How minimal on effects is lead in the environment?

More and more youngsters are being diagnosed with breathing difficulties, asthma and the like.

 

I know we removed lead from fuel, but for all the years it was in fuel, it is still in the environment, on road surfaces, been washed into watercourses, down drains into sewage and road drainage, then into our drinking water after being treated. Lead water pipes are still in use, but after scaling inside probably reduces the impact.

 

I do agree switching between metric and imperial is unprofessional, but as anglers we do it. Line diameter measured in millimetres or tenths of, breaking strains in pounds and ounces, lead weights measured in ounces, shot measured in grammes, depths measured in feet, distances in yards or metres. 

 

Probably the main reason we use lead is its malleability (?), its ability to be reused, and reused. The lead off the church roof becomes a fishing lead or a new sheet of lead roofing. Saying that though, tungsten or even brass weighrs would be bigger ounce for ounce than the same weight of lead, but cost would increase, and probably stop the irresponsible manufacturers call to dump the lead.

I don't want to dump or lose leads unless I have to. I keep on about inline leads, but in weed, they rarely snag up, especially the zipp shaped leads.

 

 

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i only use inlines, even on lakes where the owner advocates dropping i use inlines, i have fished clear, weedy, cloudy, snaggy waters and i use inlines.

i have never got a fish snagged up that i have failed to recover and i have lost one lead in the last 18 months, that was due to a crack off that sailed over the lake and into a field.

please do try to tell me why it is NEEDFUL to drop the lead when with care and a decent pair of waders you can avoid getting into strife in the first place.

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Which manufactures are advocating dropping leads unessarily? There was a bit of a trend to drop the lead with out thought but imo these days are gone. Vast majority of anglers ain't dropping leads for the sake of it these days. Only the gullible were doning it in the first place. There are situations where dropping the lead in thick weed for example is the best way forward. There also a big difference between dropping a lead every fish on a low stocked pit where you might catch a few fish a year to dropping a lead every fish on brasenose!

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35 minutes ago, LJC carper said:

Which manufactures are advocating dropping leads unessarily? There was a bit of a trend to drop the lead with out thought but imo these days are gone. Vast majority of anglers ain't dropping leads for the sake of it these days. Only the gullible were doning it in the first place. There are situations where dropping the lead in thick weed for example is the best way forward. There also a big difference between dropping a lead every fish on a low stocked pit where you might catch a few fish a year to dropping a lead every fish on brasenose!

I still think Korda and their Hybrid Lead clips are designed and advocated to drop the lead on every take, and there is also the picture of a certain lakes rules:

image.png

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Most lead clip can be used to drop the lead every take and every lead clip can keep the lead on the clip every take including the hybrids. I was recently reading the big interview book which is spin off from Carpworld. DF is interveiwed its from a good few years ago and even back then DF stressed the importance of only dropping the lead when absolutely nessasary.  

If you are useing lead clip and fish to keep the lead imo you should still be dropping the odd one noun and again if you never loose a lead then the tail rubber is to tight. You should loose the odd one. 

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I know I'm often slow on the uptake, but surely; if the lead is fixed, the lead clip is fixed, if the lead clip is fixed and the main line breaks, the lead clip is still fixed to the line, which is attached to the fish - wouldn't this create the potential for it [the lead clip] to grab hold of any snag available :confused: where as when its not fixed, it can slide off the line.

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16 minutes ago, Gazlaaar said:

I think there were problems with the clips moving without the lead ejecting. So they made a molded clip to prevent this from happening. That's the impression I got anyway, a full proof system.

Your right mate but it all comes down to user error if the clip comes off the swivel. There three types of lead clips the hybrid which are a bit OTT imo the clips with pegs that  fix the clip there pretty fool proof and the push over the swivel until you hear a click type. All work perfectly well if used properly. I am a bit of lead clip devotee to be honest use them for the majority of my bottom fishing.

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Me and you are opposites then, you have your reasons based on what you have experienced, I have mine. No of us are wrong. I get what cyborx is saying, it's illegal, but I would question how illegal and how can it be enforced. As greekskii points out, the letter is flawed, no real stats no real information. Until they can gather actual conclusive proof the Angling Trust won't do anything about it. Let's face it, anglers don't inherently have a lot of faith in the Angling Trust or the EA, they'll need to be hard evidence for it to be looked at, the problem with that, it'll be too late, if any damage is done at all.

Back to my original point, I've seen time and time again arguments or crossed words break out between anglers because different ideologies, each defending their own point of view without thinking, you have to trust the word of one another and just because somebody does something you don't, it doesn't make them wrong.

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I don't agree with dropping the lead, I see it as litter in the same way I don't leave Fag ends, bottles and wrappers on the bank when I leave; but I respect others decisions. In my mind though, with a sliding lead clip, the carp cannot use the weight to shake the hook; with a fixed lead clip, the carp can get snagged more easily with or without the lead.

If I were to use these types of arguments to carp mats: never needed them in the early days, soft wet grass is good enough, what proof of damage was there before carp mats - what would you all say? (I have a new tin hat so fire away with the "it's not the same at all", I say it is).

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I've seen Chris Yates slagged off because he put fish on grass, I've seen Terry Hearn slagged off because apparently he had the fish out of the water too long. I've recently seen Oli Davis slagged off because of the way they fished Rainbow. I've seen it all, and the truth is, people love to discredit others without knowing the facts or understanding the person or the motivation at the time.

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1 hour ago, ianain said:

I don't agree with dropping the lead, I see it as litter in the same way I don't leave Fag ends, bottles and wrappers on the bank when I leave; but I respect others decisions. In my mind though, with a sliding lead clip, the carp cannot use the weight to shake the hook; with a fixed lead clip, the carp can get snagged more easily with or without the lead.

If I were to use these types of arguments to carp mats: never needed them in the early days, soft wet grass is good enough, what proof of damage was there before carp mats - what would you all say? (I have a new tin hat so fire away with the "it's not the same at all", I say it is).

There a simple answer if people are so concerned about as something as insignificant as a lead clip been danerous stop  putting a razor sharp hook in there mouths. 

 

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10 hours ago, LJC carper said:

There a simple answer if people are so concerned about as something as insignificant as a lead clip been danerous stop  putting a razor sharp hook in there mouths. 

 

the only logical argument to that would be, "putting a razor sharp hook in their mouth" doesn't harm the environment whereas littering you own or others possible drinking water supply with lead, arsenic and other poisons most deffo does :wink:

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11 minutes ago, cyborx said:

the only logical argument to that would be, "putting a razor sharp hook in their mouth" doesn't harm the environment whereas littering you own or others possible drinking water supply with lead, arsenic and other poisons most deffo does :wink:

I said before. Round my way the amount of arsenic in the water/silt should be huge due to the shoe and boots industry however it's so minimal it doesn't even harm things like bloodworm. 

I don't think the amount of lead will ever rival what went in back then so I don't see it will be a massive problem. 

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13 hours ago, Gazlaaar said:

 As greekskii points out, the letter is flawed, no real stats no real information. Until they can gather actual conclusive proof the Angling Trust won't do anything about it. Let's face it, anglers don't inherently have a lot of faith in the Angling Trust or the EA, they'll need to be hard evidence for it to be looked at, the problem with that, it'll be too late, if any damage is done at all.

 

this is the main problem with it .... is the reason there is no evidence because under normal conditions lead does not break down underwater, moist air is needed? 

If it was just as simple as saying that lead you just lost will soon be polluting the lake , then surely it should of been banned years ago & the science should easily prove it & back it up? 

I don't believe in dropping leads personally & it's not a practice I do & that includes when I use lead clips if my lead gets snagged then yes it will will come off but only then  . you hear that you need to drop the lead when zig fishing.... I don't & that's  fishing 12-13ft zigs , Don't blame the lead blame the hook hold .

think the main point is to get anglers who do drop alot of lead to have a re-think & cut down .

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11 minutes ago, chillfactor said:

you hear that you need to drop the lead when zig fishing.... I don't & that's  fishing 12-13ft zigs , Don't blame the lead blame the hook hold .

On the weedy waters I fish dropping the lead when fishing zigs is an absolute must. Not a fan of dropping leads but IMO the landing of fish in heavy weed on zigs depends on it.

p.s. Happy birthday Phil.

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