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Dropping leads and it's impacts


Highy
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They market this as being safe for the fish - how can dumping lead in a fishes environement ever be safe? I'm surrounded by nature, fishing for pleasure. It wouldn't be pleasure if i kept losing lead into the water - fish care doesn't just mean having a good mat and care kit - it goes much further than that doesn't it? Drop one buy one - that's what this is all about

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31 minutes ago, yonny said:

Who is 'they'?

Welcome to the forum.

just found this bit of research carried out by Eden21 'a gov sponsored research team who specialize in 'circular economy solutions'.

About Eden21

eden21 works with organisations and businesses to develop circular economy solutions and deliver sustainable resource management. As a British Standard’s Committee member and one of its authors, eden21 played a pivotal role developing BS 8001 ‒ the world’s first circular economy standard. We have also advised the UK Prime Minister’s Strategy Unit (Cabinet Office), other UK government departments and public/private sector clients. eden21 is a founding member, North West England Sustainable Development Group and North West England Climate Fund (Scrutiny Chair). We played a formative role in Defra’s £30M New Technology Demonstrator Programme and have led many fact finding study tours across Europe/UK to evaluate environmental technologies for recycling and recovery.

 

http://www.eden21.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Lead-Weight-Drop-Examples.pdf

 

thoughts? :lol:

 

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10 minutes ago, cyborx said:

just found this bit of research carried out by Eden21 'a gov sponsored research team who specialize in 'circular economy solutions'.

About Eden21

eden21 works with organisations and businesses to develop circular economy solutions and deliver sustainable resource management. As a British Standard’s Committee member and one of its authors, eden21 played a pivotal role developing BS 8001 ‒ the world’s first circular economy standard. We have also advised the UK Prime Minister’s Strategy Unit (Cabinet Office), other UK government departments and public/private sector clients. eden21 is a founding member, North West England Sustainable Development Group and North West England Climate Fund (Scrutiny Chair). We played a formative role in Defra’s £30M New Technology Demonstrator Programme and have led many fact finding study tours across Europe/UK to evaluate environmental technologies for recycling and recovery.

 

http://www.eden21.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Lead-Weight-Drop-Examples.pdf

 

thoughts? :lol:

 

nothing groundbreaking. I think you get a difference in what the mags say and what the angler drops the lead for in a lot of cases. The whole fish welfare part is kind of a given and not stated. Is that the entire bit of research based on that sample size?

Go round fisheries and ask anglers why they drop the lead. I'd say 85%+ will say for fish safety and not to increase hook holds,etc. Then you'd have to analyse how they drop the lead, is it on the take, only if the fish becomes weeded. 

 

Edited by greekskii
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Interesting stuff.

Although 10 mentions over 5 years by several unspecified manufacturers and magazines across Europe is hardly shoving it down throats IMO.

I know Pallatrax were pushing the Eden 21 work.... funny that eh lol.....

The report is without doubt biased..... if they quoted every mention of dropping the lead for welfare reasons I'm sure that sample report would be 5 pages long.

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5 minutes ago, greekskii said:

nothing groundbreaking. I think you get a difference in what the mags say and what the angler drops the lead for in a lot of cases. The whole fish welfare part is kind of a given and not stated. Is that the entire bit of research based on that sample size?

not sure on that one bud (yet) but did you ever read that 'open letter' to the angling trust and fish legal that was circulating not long ago?

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3 minutes ago, yonny said:

Interesting stuff.

Although 10 mentions over 5 years by several unspecified manufacturers and magazines across Europe is hardly shoving it down throats IMO.

I know Pallatrax were pushing the Eden 21 work.... funny that eh lol.....

The report is without doubt biased..... if they quoted every mention of dropping the lead for welfare reasons I'm sure that sample report would be 5 pages long.

i think that if all tackle was designed from a fish welfare point of view we wouldnt be able to pursue this hobby of ours, leaders, leadcore etc,etc IMO not safe and not required AT ALL so why use them (from a safety POV)

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3 minutes ago, cyborx said:

not sure on that one bud (yet) but did you ever read that 'open letter' to the angling trust and fish legal that was circulating not long ago?

yes mate, again, it was a bit biased IMO and not exactly based on much actual evidence, more hypothetical calculations based on various assumptions. Personally as a respected professional in that field, I'm surprised he put his name to it tbh. He just assumed all leads used are uncoated and will leach straight in to the environment. I believe I said previously in this topic about the coatings on leads, etc.

We all know dropping the lead will have impacts at some point. But as I said earlier in the thread. Lead was used for so many things in the past and the effects are yet to be seen, so anglers leads wont make a massive difference. Until the water companies start moaning about having to strip lead from the drinking water I think we are fine as an angling fraternity to not be worried about repercussions such as being fined for pollution (as per the letter to the AT). They are too busy stripping phosphates and nitrates from it at the moment, much more pressing problems as a result of poor land management.

 

 

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Something else is we have been coating leads with plastic, paint or varnish to protect and camouflage the lead, and I was no different. 
The plastic can be scraped off on gravel bars or snags, littering or creating more damage than lead alone. Almost every sea creature landed has been found with plastic in it, what about our freshwater creatures, fish, mussels, crayfish etc?

I also ended up 'reburning' the plastic to get it to stick to the lead itself, or on occasion, coating them in plaster, glue and soil, peat or sand.


As much as I was concerned, my biggest difficulty was getting hold of Stonze locally, so I always ended buying leads from a tackle shop, or a mate who makes them locally.

Now you think, Stonze, camouflaged and lead free, whats not to like?

 

Thing is though, Simon Pomeroy, as a tackle brand in Pallatrax, is going to get stick from other manufacturers who do want you to buy their leads. As anglers we are still being 'conned' into dumping leads, on the take, or in the fight. It will take DEFRA, Angling Trust and the EA to investigate, but is the money there? Is it available for any office to research it? That could be a standard college or university, but angling is really small potatoes. 

The exception could be the RSPB, researching as they supposedly did with lead shot being picked up by ducks and swans as they ate.

That research is why shot no larger than size 8, or no weights smaller than 1ounce can be sold and used. We eventually accepted that!

 

Oh a Stonze weight is not perfectly shaped, at shorter ranges that makes no odds. If you 'go long', then bagging it will make it more aerodynamic; not that a stringer, mesh tied to the lead and hook, or bag attached unless perfectly formed is aerodynamic on casting.

 

We can argue the leaders, leadcore point, but I am sure a fair number of anglers use them to fish into places that are not safe to fish into at all. Fishing into thick snags with a 40lb leader, some do. Fishing casting shock leaders in thick weed, not really a good idea, from a potential tethering point of view, but some do.

 

 

I could go onto the pendant or inline leads on leadcore, which I could argue over until the cows come home, but I'll drop that thought there...

 

 

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1 hour ago, yonny said:

Have you used the Stonez in bigger weights @salokcinnodrog?? How big are the 3.5's??

I've just had a read of the website and my gosh, I'm actually annoyed at how the site reads...and the fact some of it makes no sense at all! 

"Fish live and die within the water bodies they inhabit and for it to be promoted that by painting a lead makes it ‘disappear’ from their heightened senses is just not the case – they’re still there, they’re the most obtrusive item, they’re totally unnatural and therefore the fish has a greater ability to sense – FACT."

Either they've missed some words out or its just a ramble.

Apparently the idea has a worldwide patent, meaning noone else can drill a stone out and fit a swivel in it and sell it. No wonder they charge £1.50-2.50 a weight.

image.thumb.png.7d0ef1e93655850f22a6bfa48f137241.png

Also they have called anyone who said they are difficult to cast unskilled...I'm sure a lot will not like that! I'd like to see how Terry Edmond does casting them. Get a true representation on the difference on distance.

Basically if they ban lead weights the alternatives are Stonze (no thanks..a stone isnt natural stuck on a silt bed), whatever it is dinsmores produce or as CM sometime uses Plasticine. That is until someone produces a cheaper alternative

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1 hour ago, greekskii said:

I've just had a read of the website and my gosh, I'm actually annoyed at how the site reads...and the fact some of it makes no sense at all! 

"Fish live and die within the water bodies they inhabit and for it to be promoted that by painting a lead makes it ‘disappear’ from their heightened senses is just not the case – they’re still there, they’re the most obtrusive item, they’re totally unnatural and therefore the fish has a greater ability to sense – FACT."

Either they've missed some words out or its just a ramble.

Apparently the idea has a worldwide patent, meaning noone else can drill a stone out and fit a swivel in it and sell it. No wonder they charge £1.50-2.50 a weight.

image.thumb.png.7d0ef1e93655850f22a6bfa48f137241.png

Also they have called anyone who said they are difficult to cast unskilled...I'm sure a lot will not like that! I'd like to see how Terry Edmond does casting them. Get a true representation on the difference on distance.

Basically if they ban lead weights the alternatives are Stonze (no thanks..a stone isnt natural stuck on a silt bed), whatever it is dinsmores produce or as CM sometime uses Plasticine. That is until someone produces a cheaper alternative

I think eventually we will get to the stage that lead will be banned, even tungsten weights are larger and more expensive than lead

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7 minutes ago, salokcinnodrog said:

Just got some to play with

Look a bit massive in that pic mate, not the most streamlined either....

6 minutes ago, salokcinnodrog said:

I think eventually we will get to the stage that lead will be banned

It is inevitable buddy. The use of lead is already being phased out of manufacturing per RoHS regulations.

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3 minutes ago, salokcinnodrog said:

I think eventually we will get to the stage that lead will be banned, even tungsten weights are larger and more expensive than lead

I dont think I'll see that ban in my lifetime and I'm only 26. It would need to be based on scientific research which would take years to complete before it even gets a look in. Whoever did it would need the correct licenses to test on animals to see the effects on various species and how it carries through the food chain. It would need to be a very comprehensive study to be able to stand up to scrutiny and ensure laws are changed. 

They've got plenty of other more harmful substances to look at banning, plus Brexit. I wouldnt be surprised if we see our environment more polluted as a result of that. 

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18 minutes ago, greekskii said:

I dont think I'll see that ban in my lifetime and I'm only 26. It would need to be based on scientific research which would take years to complete before it even gets a look in.

Probably right mate. The RoHS directive includes a list of exemptions (basically stuff you're still allowed to use lead in). The list was intended to reduce year-on-year but it hasn't as there's no decent alternatives yet. It's in loads of stuff - brass inserts for example are used to hold a hell of a lot of every-day plastic components together, they contain lead and other than moving to aluminium (much more expensive) there's no alternative. It'll go on for years and years yet.

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I honestly don't know, how quickly did the lead weight on size 8 shot to 1oz come into force?

 

What research was done on that? I would reckon just the RSPB figures on swans and ducks, and I also think a lot of that could have been 'fudged'.

I think anglers were basically given a two year warning that those sizes would be banned, and alternatives had to come in very quickly. Some of the original replacements in shot were awful, too hard, and even now...

 

I know the Stonze look a bit large, but that is down to density, lead is definitely more dense than stone. I don't think its a drill a hole in a stone and fit a swivel in either as Stonze will accept bait glugs and then release it into the water, so there must be some porosity.

 If someone does drill a hole and fit a swivel in a stone, then without checking, it may not break Pallatrax's patent. You think Richard Walker didn't patent his Arlesey Bomb, but now we all use it. In this day and age, a manufacturer needs to carefully protect his ideas, or somebody does come along and rip it off. 

 

The size of them, a few years ago I was watching at 5 Lakes a video of a rod manufacturer testing the casting weight of their rods. Items put on the rod were a toaster, kettle and some other kitchen items, casting distances of them were around 40metres!

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, salokcinnodrog said:

 a few years ago I was watching at 5 Lakes a video of a rod manufacturer testing the casting weight of their rods. Items put on the rod were a toaster, kettle and some other kitchen items, casting distances of them were around 40metres!

I saw that... it was free spirit. Mental video and quite funny too.

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