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I heard rumours that the owner of a French lake is concerned about the possible mouth damage that the Ronnie Rig can cause, torn lips and the like. 

 

I know that the 360 rig also if the eye of the hook or swivel gets caught in the net, can cause damage, but what about other rigs or set-ups?

 

I think it is Luke Moffat who banned any curved shank hook as he felt Scar, Brown etc were being damaged by those hooks.

 

The Bent hook rig and Piggyback shanks were well publicised for mouth damage, too big a hook on small fish, double hooking and extremely good hookholds the hook being forced out rather than cutting the shank.

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Mouth damage normally occurs due to the angler more so than the rig in my opinion. 

On the estate a good number of fish have bad mouth damage. Why? Due to plenty of lilies and snags coupled with anglers who don’t know what to do to deal with them. I’m one of the only ones who gets in waders and goes to a fish that’s buried itself in the lilies. Most pull and pull and pull and cause more and more damage. Personally the rules cause more mouth damage than they do to avoid it. Size 8 maximum hooks and barbless only. Recipe for disaster with the amount of pads and snags. Barbless hooks and hit and hold and a lot of pressure cause horrendous mouth damage due to slippage, small size 8s only grip a small section of flesh making them easier to rip out.

Wouldnt blame it on the rig, more so the angler.  

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Vik is as usual spot on with his comments and this was one of the major reasons I turned my back on this water.

I found the management to be amongst the worst I have ever seen in over 40 years of fishing and apart from one or two exceptions the standard of angling in general was also shocking.

Cheers

Ian

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17 hours ago, greekskii said:

Size 8 maximum hooks and barbless only. Recipe for disaster with the amount of pads and snags. Barbless hooks and hit and hold and a lot of pressure cause horrendous mouth damage due to slippage, small size 8s only grip a small section of flesh making them easier to rip out.

I agree mate.

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1 hour ago, ianfrog said:

Vik is as usual spot on with his comments and this was one of the major reasons I turned my back on this water.

I found the management to be amongst the worst I have ever seen in over 40 years of fishing and apart from one or two exceptions the standard of angling in general was also shocking.

Cheers

Ian

That's because its managed by people who dont know anything about fishing sadly.

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On ‎16‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 15:18, greekskii said:

That's because its managed by people who dont know anything about fishing sadly.

I do agree with you Vik but the membership was also to blame with terrible lack of knowledge or sensitivity to welfare of the fish.

Cheers

Ian

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I felt sick when I saw this poor poor animal. I applied fish care. Bailiff jokingly named it Nemo. 

Unfortunately evidence of some disgustingly bad angling. 

DSC_0059.JPG

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I think there is a general problem with carp fishing. People start out on day tickets where the fish are caught so much mouth damage is the norm. Beginners see it and accept it as the norm. As they progress and step up they don’t think about it or make an effort to not cause it. There is a majority who don’t care about the fish, just about catching. 

I think carp care kits are a contributing factor too. A lot think mouth damage is okay as they can just treat it and it’ll heal and be perfectly normal. But you can’t not have some form of treatment in case you encounter any body or mouth damage. It shouldn’t be required for what you cause yourself if you fish right. 

Sadly there is always the possibility of mouth damage. No matter if you are a first timer or Terry Hearn. You hook a fish, mouth damage may occur for whatever reason. 

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1 hour ago, commonly said:

I pray I never see another fish in this condition. 

DSC_0057.JPG

I'm wondering if that was a tethered fish that ripped itself free...… Not nice to see.... Lovely scale pattern, such a shame...

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12 hours ago, greekskii said:

I think there is a general problem with carp fishing. People start out on day tickets where the fish are caught so much mouth damage is the norm. Beginners see it and accept it as the norm. As they progress and step up they don’t think about it or make an effort to not cause it. There is a majority who don’t care about the fish, just about catching. 

I think carp care kits are a contributing factor too. A lot think mouth damage is okay as they can just treat it and it’ll heal and be perfectly normal. But you can’t not have some form of treatment in case you encounter any body or mouth damage. It shouldn’t be required for what you cause yourself if you fish right. 

Sadly there is always the possibility of mouth damage. No matter if you are a first timer or Terry Hearn. You hook a fish, mouth damage may occur for whatever reason. 

I think there is a whole list of reasons. You are right about people starting off in day ticket puddles, where most of the time there are few snags and little weed, then moving on to lakes that are completely different without changing tactics, ie slack lines and loose clutches without much though .. Hard to blame an angler who know's no different.. I've said it loads of times, that tackle firms are good at promoting their wares, but rarely talk about fishing safely or bank etiquette..... Then there's bailiffs, we've mentioned before on other threads about never having rigs/clutches checked..... I saw an angler slack lining up against a wall of weed last week 10 yards from the bank, landed 2 lost 4.... The 2 landed were hauled through the weed..... All this while there were fish spawning on the other side of the lake and he was waggler fishing in the next swim for Rudd while his rods were out against the weed...…. This is an extreme example of bad practice imo, but he was oblivious to it , just educated in the wrong way..... Don't get me wrong, there are plenty out there that do things the right way, but imo , a large chunk of our sport has become an "entertainment" industry, they pay their money and want to be entertained with a photo to prove it, and a sense of unfulfillment if they blank...………..

Large hooks and strong tackle for me staying close to my rods at this time of year when the weed is up... I will forfeit a few takes, I'd rather hook 2 and land 2, than hook 6 and land 2...……. Been using the ESP Cryogen hooks for a couple of seasons now, mainly the stiff riggers in 4,5 and 6 with 16 or 18mm pop ups … Switched from Cryogen curve shanks and classic's to Gardner Muggas in 4s and 6s for bottom/balanced baits as I had a couple of hook points go over on the Cryogen curved. 

Here are some hook patterns that make me cringe, haven't used them, wouldn't buy them just on looks..... BTW, it's not a slant on these companies as I buy other tackle bits that they sell. But I can't see why you wouldn't create the same shape with shrink tubing or chod filament, that will open out under tension once a fish is hooked.

hooks 1.jpg

hooks 3.jpg

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13 hours ago, greekskii said:

I think there is a general problem with carp fishing. People start out on day tickets where the fish are caught so much mouth damage is the norm. Beginners see it and accept it as the norm. As they progress and step up they don’t think about it or make an effort to not cause it. There is a majority who don’t care about the fish, just about catching. 

I think carp care kits are a contributing factor too. A lot think mouth damage is okay as they can just treat it and it’ll heal and be perfectly normal. But you can’t not have some form of treatment in case you encounter any body or mouth damage. It shouldn’t be required for what you cause yourself if you fish right. 

Sadly there is always the possibility of mouth damage. No matter if you are a first timer or Terry Hearn. You hook a fish, mouth damage may occur for whatever reason. 

I actually think that there are a number of reasons, although I only mentioned a couple, which I'll go back to, although B.C. added it in his post.

Vik's post about day ticket or even club 'runs water' fisheries with almost every fish having mouth damage, that is not necessarily angler fault. The water is overstocked, too many fish, that may be reliant on bait. Every grain of sweetcorn or boilie is playing Russian Roulette. The fishery owner is at fault. The damage of a hookhole does not heal because a week, day maybe the fish is hooked again in the same spot. The barbed vs barbless argument would probably be best off going barbless on this type of water, to avoid the 'tear' of the barb as it comes back out. A tiny nick would be quicker to heal than a slightly larger tear; the tear gets enlarged, the pinprick is in a slightly different spot.

Angler and fishery fault!

 

I still see anglers trying to get out hooks with fingers, instead of forceps. Or forcing, on a well hooked fish, the hook free with forceps where cutting it is better. 

 

I mentioned in my first post about particular rigs and hooks, and B.C. kindly went back to it in his post. Hook patterns, hook sizes, particular rigs, 360, Ronnie rig as my original post, why do they damage fish?

 

A size 4 hook on single figure carp, the swivel catches in the net, and the fish slides down the net, both are possible causes of damage. The hook size and wire gauge relative to the size of fish. Put simply, a Ronnie, 360 or Bent hook rig is not suitable for smaller carp, and unless you are spot on with watching whether the hook or swivel has caught in the mesh risky for big fish. 

As I wrote that I started wondering about any rig with a swivel on the hooklink! 

 

Luke Moffatt and Scar, Les Gravieres, a member on here has caught it, but Luke started getting concerned over mouth damage after any curved hook, longshank or not. His rules as far as I know now state straight shank hooks only, although I don't know whether it is barbed or barbless.

 

Something, again came to mind as I started writing, rig design, hair length, where the fish is hooked, and to some extent the hooklink strength compared to the hook gauge.

 

Hook the fish further back in the mouth, behind the lip, that same hook is not going to rip free, the fish will be hooked well, but if hooked right in the lip, the hook is in soft flesh, loads of pressure will rip it out.

A small hook, on a fairly thick gauge, with a heavy hooklink and mainline. Put too much pressure on the fish, hook pull; the line or hooklink isn't going to break it is so heavy, after all 15lb braided hooklink, with 15lb mainline on a size 10 heavy gauge hook, the hook will rip free first.

 What happened to a finer wire size 10 on 5lb hooklink to 8lb mainline? 

Will a barbless hook, with no barb to hold it in such a situation actually cut down the lip, rather than stick, almost as if the contact point of the hook below the hookpoint has become a blade?

 

 

 

 

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