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Complicated Rigs.

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Commonhunter, I don't know about you, but I KNOW I'm mad. LOL:D .


Riphunter, Tongue in cheek comment about your tackle being antique, merely a piece of wit and joviality.:wink:


When I do a 2/3 day trip yes I do put my Century Sp's on the Buzzers and fish overnight, but anything I catch at night I treat as Bonus Fish. During the day I spend as much time as I possibly can stalking or fish locating...

Like you if it won't go in my JRC stalking bag I don't need it. An unhooking mat for a seat, a net that I bought when I was 14, that makes it 21years old, and my Stalking rod. Admittedly that's only about 5years old, because I had a load of gear stolen from my flat. A Daiwa Pro Specialist 11/2lb 11.6 rod that is happy casting freelined floaters and fishing a float 'lift' style. When I can justify it I may buy a 'proper' stalking rod.


The number of fish I have caught about 2-3 foot from the bank is far more than I have caught with 'Long Casts' and rods on the buzzers.


I used to fish every night after work with just my stalking tackle and regularly caught 6-7 fish in a couple of hours either on floaters or naturals. My 28lb personal best was caught in a 21/2 hour 'session' between work and college.


Getting 'up close and personal' I have found that I learn so much more than just sitting behind rods. How fish feed, how they check the bait, just 2 of the things you can see. As for being a proper Carp Angler, I reckon I just about qualify, but only on the numbers of fish I have caught. :wink::D :D :D



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The way i look at it lads and ladies, is that if you go back 15 or even 20 years the anglers were still catching specimen fish. Even thought they didnt have snakeskin or fluorocarbon.


I am 15 years olod and i have been fishing since i was about 8, and way back when i started i couldnt afford fancy rig materials or bait. But that didnt stop me catching two twenty+ commons from one of the harder syndicate waters in my area. ON SWEETCORN!!!


Just think about it!

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salokcinnodrog: Yes, realised in jest. Apologies if it seemed like I took it to heart.


I know that this topic has veered massively off subject, which really isn't the done thing, but I'd like to make one more point, or re-make it.


This last week I've been away fishing, following some pretty awful family news, so it was a clearing of the head session really. I fished at a big mixed complex, which had everything from match lakes to super sized specimin pools, and a brilliant strech of top class river next to it.


I thought I would have a play with rigs, having been thinking about this thread.


I tried various different bottom rigs, that I found in this months issues of Total Carp, CarpOlogy and Anglers Mail/Times. I also tried Cash's Maggot Method rig, and my own balanced bomb and paternoster rigs. I fished Flat float, pole float, and lift method. I used trout spoons and super sized dry flys. I also stret pegged ( basically float legering on a river ) dead baits. I free lined into the margins and to features.


I caught at least one carp on every single method. The trout spoons was not intentional, I must admit, I was hoping for perch. I had 14 fish that weighed over 20lb, lots of doubles and many many singles.


I came to the following conclusions:


1) Float fishing is more interesting

2) The less resisiance, the bolder the take

3) finding the fish is the hardest part

4) Getting them feeding is the next hardest

5) once you've found feeding carp, they really are quite easy to catch, there are a huge variety of ways to catch them.


The lakes I was fishing are considered "hard", and the fish were termed "riggy". The bottom rigs, with the exception of the maggot method, were generally less good at catching than the other methods. I think this can be summed up by the fact that the fish would seem to be used to baits tethered tightly to a heavy object, or that float a few inches above the bottom. However, I think that the " potentials" to "captured" rate was better than with all other methods apart from free lining.


Free lining was the most fun, but the most tense form of fishing. It's the least relaxing form. The most relaxing is legering a semi-fixed rig.


Having the right kit helps. Certainly having a rod with lots of rings and a very through, avon like action, helps with float fishing and free lining. However, it's not required. The carp caught on the spinner was taken on 5lb line and a 7 foot lure rod and tiny reel. it weighted 14lb.


To try and bring this back to the original question. There would seem to be no best, or definative way to catch carp. It also seems that rigs play very little part in the actual catching of the fish, complcated or otherwise.


However, these were well stocked lakes ( although no stockings in the river ) and so on a hard water with 20 fish, other factors will be in play as well.


Make from this what you will.



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Nuff said Steve!!


3 rules to fishing any species


1) Find

2) Feed

3) Present


I know this sounds rudementry but i often see only the presenting done on lakes!!


As Steve has said, Follow these rules and you should be expecting to catch!!!


He has just, in carp terms, hauled!! on a "Hard" water.


Incidently... i don't think a hard water exists really!!!! i've fished a 9 acre with 6 fish in it........ was it hard? No, took me about 3 months to find the fish, then 3 fell to freelined worm in the margin.. (on there nose) not hard, just ages to find!

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Steve (rip), to be honest I don't think you've gone off Thread, you've tried various rigs and methods to prove/disprove a point.


I guess you just said in better and more proven terms what I've said on occasion.


Locate the Fish

Find a food that the Carp want to eat, present it in the right place, and you will catch.


Hard waters; The only waters I think of as hard are those with limited stock in relation to their size. Try finding carp on a 167 acre reservoir.


Complicated Rigs; Who needs them? just get the location and the food source right.


Someday, someone will make me eat my words... lol;)

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Hard waters; The only waters I think of as hard are those with limited stock in relation to their size. Try finding carp on a 167 acre reservoir.



Hmmm.... I bet that we can do it as a group, or at least get you close, sitting in front of our computers if we try.


This is my ten penneth worth. ( Cookieguy, that's 24 cents to you at the moment....)


We need to make some assumptions first, although Salok should correct these as required.


We have a reservoir. Becuase, as you will have noticed i'm really bad at spelling, I'll just say Res from now on.


167 acres is a big piece of water. Too big to be a hole dug straight out of the ground. We assumed a small flooded valley.167 acres is too small for one of the massive res's that fill this country.


At the bottom of the valley there is a large dam. Near the large dam, probably less than 100 yards away, there is a tower sticking up.


The res needed to have been flooded at some point, we assume that a river was dammed to cause the res. Rivers in the UK tend, please note only tend, to flow from north to south. We therefore assume the dam is at the southern end and the shallows of the res are at the northern end. Standing on the dam looking up the res, we have the west on our left, and the east on our right.


The res is longer than it is wide.


Now the fish.


Lets say that we have 50 fish. 5 30 lb fish and 25 20-odd pound fish. The rest are smaller.


The res is also filled with roach, pike, perch, bream and eels.


< Anyone who has less love of carp will be found catching 3lb perch on the fly very deep down by that tower next to the dam....>


We need to catch the carp. We want a 30lb fish.


We have to do the following.


Find roughly where the fish are

Narrow that "roughly" to as close to certain as you can

present a bait to them

do so in such a way as to land them.


I'd do the following:


It's now late june. We are in the warm, middle part, of the european summer monsoon ( yes, we really do have one ). in general, next week will be very wet, but for now, temps are high, we have plenty of cloud cover, and some wind.


What do we know?

On our res, we have deep water at one end that may well still be cool, or even cold, for another few weeks. However, at the shallower, northern end, the water will be warmer.


We know that carp like warmer water, and that the stuff that the feed on also likes warmer water. However, like us, if they get too hot, they tend to eat less.


The colder water at the dam end has been cold for a long time. It's also a lot deeper, and so contains less oxygen.


We live in the western hemishpere, so the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.


shallow water cools quicker than deep water, but it also warms faster.


The sun starts by landing on the western side of the res at dawn. The last part of the res to lose light is the eastern side.


What does this give us?


Assume we are a carp at just before dawn. We are in the dead centre of the lake.


As dawn breaks, we want to get warm. We move the the western side of the lake to warm up and feed. The water is going to warm faster at the northern end, so we move to the north west.


as day goes on, we move from a feeding mood to a cruising mode. We stay in the northern half of the lake, but we are eating less, so there is less incentive to stay in very shallow, now hot water, so we retreat to where it's cooler, and we are now in deeper water neraer the middle. As the sun lowers over the magical 10 degree to the horizon mark, we become more prepared to feed at our peak rate, and so move again to the warmer, but now not hot, waters. This is now on the north easten end of the res.


As night falls, the shallower waters cool quicker. We, the carp, move back to the middle, deeper area's of the lake.


Now this seems to be a VERY generalised sort of patrol route. As the seasons change, the route will change, but you can see my reasoning?



Note 2: Obviously everything does not work like clock work as I describe >



This leads us to be thinking roughly where we want to be looking at what time of day.


Wind however will play a massive factor in changing this. Salok, can you tell us the wind direction in general?


Now let's look at the size of the fish.


A 30lb fish will feed less often than one of 10lb, but that meal will be much larger. while still being a very active fish, he will be less lily to stray massive distances, as he needed far more energy to move a given distance than a small fish does. We can assume that his circluar trip is smaller than a 10lb fish.


Immediately, we see why it's harder to catch a big fish than a small one. They have shorter feeding spells. However, during those feeding spells, they will eat a lot more. This lets us make a guess that a big fish is likly to be more easily fooled than a smaller fish once he has his head down and is wolfing food, as he has a desire to get more food eaten in a given time.


Again, we need to think about season. Being mid/late june, the carp are finishing spawning. This implies that they will be more ready to feed.


This could be in two ways. The first is that they will feed at the same rate for longer. The second is that they will eat more in the same feeding windows. I guess that it will be a bit of both, so they will be TRYING to eat more for longer. This lets us think that they are more likly to eat our bait.


Something else that is season dependant, although also based on geology, is what they are eating nautarally.


Is the res is a lime stone walled res, then it could well be that they are eating the buzzers still. On a silty bottom, in the shallows at least, there will be a lot of insect life. There will also be a lot of insect life on the surface.



This gives us another clue about general carp behaviour. In shallow water in summer, there is a lot of natural food. It is likely that a nautral bait will do better than an artificial. However, turning the tables, in the depths of winter, boilies would seem to be a winner. This would seemed to be backed up by my own experience.


Now let's look at everything together.


We want to catch a 30lb carp.


Mornings are colder tahn evenings, so lets say that we're going to fish in the evening, after work or school. We want to be where we think the fish are, so we get to the north east end of the res.


We want to catch a big fish, after spawning, so we need to use a big bait, as the carp will have to expend less energy eating a large bait than many smaller baits, so if provided with a choice, the larger fish will accept a larger bait and it would seem like a natural bait would be best. But, we have other fish in the lake, especially eels, so we need to use a bait that won't catch them, or at least hinder them.


A great big lump of bread paste seems a good idea. So to does 20 worms on a size 1/0 hook, or 30 on a size 3/0. That should be too big for our eels to swallow in one go, but be of no problem to the carp.


Now we have a time, a rough idea of a place and a bait. And I have to wander off to look after the cat that is shouting at me for it's fourth dinner of the night, so I leave the rest for everyone else to fill in.


You have a piece of water in front of you, maybe 10 acres now in practical size. The sun is in your face and you have maybe four hours to catch the fish.


What thoughts need to be thought, experiments carried out, rigs need to be cast etc to find that massive carp?



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now we have 10 acres......


i'd start by seeing if there are trees close by to get a visual if not then......


i'd start with a side hooked bait (match/old style) of natural.... worms are a fav at this time of year!


i'd use a simple paternoster then change one thing at a time... untill i found them!!!! I would never spod, use a huge lead, or buzzers, this early!!





1) Weed and other Aquatic life give off less oxygen during the cooler parts of the day, does this mean they will move from the shallows or stay for the food?

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1) Weed and other Aquatic life give off less oxygen during the cooler parts of the day, does this mean they will move from the shallows or stay for the food?


I don't think that you can use temperture as a guide to disolved oxygen levels. Yes, temp definately is a cause of oxygen loss, but it is light that drives the photosynesis that creates some, but not all of the O2.


Therefore, there will be more o2 being generated on a very bright cold day than a overcast warm day.


Secondly, the biggest factor in a large body of water when it comes to o2 levels is the level of "chop" on the water cuased by wind, and also any rain that is happening. Both rain and chop disrupt the meniscus of the water and allow o2 to become trapped, disolve and circulate. This is why on a hot day, if a wind blows up, the fish will literally flock to any area that is seeing the highest levels of suface disruption. This could be the windward size of an island, the "blown" end of a lake, or a point where two wave patterns intersect, such as you would get at the edge of shallows down the edge side of the lake that is being blown ( think of two streams colliding, and what happens to the surface...)


To commonhunter, and everyone else, I have a question about what commonhunter wrote.




Why a side hooked bait, a paternoster etc etc.


I personally think they are the right answers, but I'm playing devils advocate and asking why you think they are.


The fact that we have discussed them and agree they are good does not make them, in the specific case, right.


remember, always, the two worlds of fishing advice, whicH I wrote about before.


The first says "here is a way to catch fish". The second says "This is a way of thinking about how to work out the best way of catching a fish".


This is the Advanced area, so I say be damned with the first way of advice, and lets stick with the second. That way everybody learns.



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Right the layout of the Res is this.


It is split into 2 arms, one going roughly North/South, one going roughly East/West. The 2 join at the Dam Wall, which does have an Aerator. At the northern end is another smaller dam, and there are several smaller dams along the edges. There are also several inflow pipes from the Sewage Treatment works on one side. Near the Dam Wall is the area where the Sailing Club have their HQ.

The northern end, the only section that I have seen fish so far, where I found them attempting to Spawn at the start of May. This arm stretches for about 11/2 miles, (admittedly worked out by time taken to walk length). There is some bankside cover at the far end of the North Arm, trees, but some of it is open. I have climbed as many trees as I safely can, and found some very good possible spots.

The Dam at the North end has an area of water that goes from 4feet at the shallowest to depths that I have found of 12 feet, although I have only managed to fish it 4 times. There is prolific weed growth, Silkweed, Canadian Pondweed and some others.


I have walked all along the North Arm, which seems to be the least crowded.

In 4 trips I have caught 2 Carp and about 8/9 Bream. The Carp weighed 13.8 and 24.12.


All I can say is that that is a start. Every fish came on Boilies as I have a feeling that the Carp are taking such large Patrol Routes that I need a Bait to be in the water for a long time. This idea is due to I have followed the Wind and I caught on night 3 of a 3 night session. I may be wrong in this, but I have not caught on single overnighters or 2 night sessions. I have looked all along the Northern Arm for fish every time I have set up on any trip, and have so far always followed the wind pushing into it.


While I would happily use a Natural if I could see Carp, the sheer numbers of Bream and Perch make this very difficult. I have got Carp feeding over Pellets and Particles, that I spodded out into what I think was a fish made clear patch in the weed.


Any more ideas?

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Answer to simple rig!!


Steve, my reasoning is this..........


The lengh of the hair on a hair rig, can produce different effects (i know you know this)This is over complicating the presentation to start with, as the hook is exposed. side hooking allows for both a more natural presentation (especially if tied with a fine wire spade end) and covers the hook! but i would be filling it with worm anyhow!!!


Paternoster because the bite detection is fantastic, but i also get a good indication of what is happening at the terminal end. most probably though, at this lake, i'd start with a touch ledger, then maybe a running ledger, depending on wheather i'd had, runs and drops, or bites, no takes....


my fishing day to day is........


turn up at lake.... locate fish.....(5 acres,,,, about 1/2 -3 hrs)


get them feeding, i use the same as hookbait, so if worm then a very few chopped to get a feed.... if they don't feed i move!


once feeding, if castable then freelined 8-20 worms. centrepin reel with 8-12lb mono with a leader of about 6lb fluro. cast over then pulled in to fish.... nailed!!!


simple and effective!


i have always fished for carp the wrong way, presenting not finding!


now i've changed, after trying and failing for river carp! had a 18 common at the weekend tho, freelined sweetcorn... was after a barbel and bang!!!!! chuffed to bits!!! i had to catch one and took a leaf out of some barbel anglers book!!! increased my catch rate no end..... defo 1 carp a session......... unless i blank!!!!! lol

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Your all gonna hammer me now I know but isn't all just variations on the same rig???? theres nothing much different apart from where the hook or bait is positioned as far as I can see, so maybe its time for a new rig, I remember when the hair rig came out there was so much secrecy & whisperings going round our lake at the time & fair play it made a difference BACK then but now I believe a rig is just a rig, fish dont know you've spend 15 hours making it or whatever they're just interested in the hookbait aren't they to be fair???:rolleyes::)

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Rob, I agree with you to a certain extent. The basics on a hair rig can be changed quite easily, length of hair, lengthen or shorten, attach it to the shank, the bend or the eye.


The sliding hair invented by Rod Hutchinson I believe was the progression from a basic hair.


At the same time I believe it was Roger Smith who came up with the Idea of the D-rig. With the D-rig where/how the D is fixed can be changed. I.e from the eye to the shank or from the eye up the hooklength.


Now both rigs are just steps forward from the basic hair, and I don't think to be honest that there have been that many new Innovations since then. We have different types of Hook, short shank wide gape, Longshank, Inturned eye, outurned eye and various others. Nearly all use either the Line Aligner or the Knotless Knot and a basic hair.


I think that in a way you have answered your own question without realising it. Get the Fish feeding comfortably on the Bait and a simple effective rig will catch them.:wink::D :D

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Your all gonna hammer me now I know but isn't all just variations on the same rig???? theres nothing much different apart from where the hook or bait is positioned as far as I can see, so maybe its time for a new rig, I remember when the hair rig came out there was so much secrecy & whisperings going round our lake at the time & fair play it made a difference BACK then but now I believe a rig is just a rig, fish dont know you've spend 15 hours making it or whatever they're just interested in the hookbait aren't they to be fair???:rolleyes::)


I agree with most of what Rob says.


A hair rig is a hair rig. I would say that adding shrink tubing probably doesn't increase the odds of a fish picking the bait up, and that something like the d-rig slashes the odd's drastically. Would anyone seriously use the d-ring rig for a chub?


I just wrote one of my massive pieces discussing how rigs actually work, and how they can be improved, but my head is all over the place ( even more aful family news ...sigh ) so I cut and pasted it to word and will work on it and post it tommorrow when it is both shorter and less comprised of drivel.


Suffice to say, we need a rig to catch a fish, and there are better and worse rigs to catch carp with. One of the very best is a hook and a line and that's it. But, again, THERE IS NO BEST ANYTHING. There is "better" and "worse" but no "best". (oh, that's a point. I thought of a way of free-lining a bait out 50 yards. Does anyone care, and if so, should I post it here or in another thread?)


I would say that the carp is interested in getting it's dinner. The purpose of a rig is to make a carp think that Boilie A is the same as Boilie B and C, when it is actually attached to a hook. However, for the carp to eat any of boilies A, B or C, it has to firstly be next to them and secondly want to eat them. Only if those two items are completed then does rig start to matter. But, when Location and Bait are found, rig does START to matter.


Will post "Steve's thoughts about how rigs work" tommorrow or friday when it is actually readable.


Until then, a question. Imagine that Chap A was a keen angler who loves to catch eel's and carp, and he knew Chap B, who has a Doctorate in Chemistry. Chap A is also Ok with chemistry, and asks Chap B to help come up with a way of producing totally non-toxic live maggots that glow in the dark when a light is shone on them for a few minutes. Interesting?


How much would you pay for a pint of them. for imaginations sake, they are White maggots that could be either green or yellow, but not red, becuase Chap A can't make red work and Chap A's girlfriend has put the kibosh on the mini-maggot farm used for testing.


Do you think they would sell?



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Yes one way of catching fish is to use a hook and line.

The main advantage of the knotless knot and the hair rig is that it leaves the hook free to do its job - to hook fish almost unimpeded by bait unlike side-hooking in my opinion.

The hair rig started life as just that, a hair, or a very slim line that connected hook to bait, with the idea of presenting a bait that behaved naturally, ie, not directly connected to the stiffer hooklink.Now Fluorocarbon is used with the knotless knot does this defeat the object of using a hair??

The fine, supple hair enables the hookbait to behave like a free offering but only for the travel of the hair and then it'll act like an anchored bait when the weight of the hook, hooklink etc comes into play.

Does this 5-10mm travel really make all the difference???


But they're are minor modifications that I feel can be applied to the basic hook and line principle that will increase the hooking potential and mechanics once the carp has mouthed the bait.


The Knotless knot revolutionised the way anglers present their bait over and above a grinner or blood knot attached to a hook with or without a hair, whether attached separately or not. The knotless knots benefits are two fold

1)The strain on the knot is non-strangle giving a better line break

2) The angle of which the line exits the eye back towards the rod. This by far increases a turning action when sucked into a carp’s mouth thus increasing the anti-eject motion.


With the Line Aligner, the line-lay coming back from the hook is exaggerated even further and rigidly set if constructed correctly thus increasing even more the anti-eject mechanism, giving turning a far greater speed when engaged.



Now both rigs are just steps forward from the basic hair, and I don't think to be honest that there have been that many new Innovations since then. We have different types of Hook, short shank wide gape, Longshank, Inturned eye, outurned eye and various others. Nearly all use either the Line Aligner or the Knotless Knot and a basic hair


Exactly the hooks only actuates the angle that the hair/mainline is kicked out at from the shank or eye of the hook.


In my opinion if we look at the real developments in end tackle which have been made over the last twenty years, we find that most of them are designed to fool wary fish (i.e., hair rigs, braided lines, double strength lines). If we can use a bait that does not alert the carp to a

significant danger, then the need for complicated rigs disappears.The likelihood of a particular carp being caught is dependent upon how hungry it is and how aware it is that there might be a bad experience linked to the food. If this is the case, then alternative baits are most advantageous when the carp are not really inclined to feed as opposed to complicated rigs.


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Steve you posted......


"I thought of a way of free-lining a bait out 50 yards. Does anyone care, and if so, should I post it here or in another thread?"


I'm thinking here would be good!! and now!!! lol


I look at different things when i'm deciding what rig to use, for example.. I'd weigh up the desirability factor, I have noticed that on the buzzers i will "generally!" get a few bleeps then a run. From watching Korda Videc's It also seems that the carp take a sample and then try to eject the hook. So most of the modern derivitives of the hair rig ( D, Slider, "Blow Back" Shrink at all sorts of angles!!), are in effect trying to engage the hook at get less ejection. I use a bait like worms, "lots", side hooked. Anti-Eject isn't an issue as i believe the Carp approach this with so confidence, especially when it's not 6" away from a 3oz Lead!


Just a Thought!


Also, with regards to Leads, as still the rig! I Think That if i study and really understand the species i'm fishing for then my rate of catch will increase, maybe confidence, or maybe that i have an idea where they like to play!. I'm currently not fishing Lakes and am concerntrating my efforts toward more river Carp, just the one at the mo!, and in studying catch reports for river caught carp and the rigs used, there is a definate weight towards a traditional plain lead, not coated. interestingly tho, in looking into this particular fact it transpires that Dave Lane and Lee Jackson both favour a plain lead! Since learning this (about 12 Months ago) i have exclusivley used plain leads for all of my carp fishing and i haven't stopped catching! the problem is......


It also came about when i really decided to get off my ************ and Fish, rather than sit behind alarms all the time. Since that i really haven't stopped catchin'! i'd love to say it's just the leads but.............



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Thank the Lord, we're finally on a new page. How long did page Two get? My fault, sorry.


Ok, this is an editted version of what I started writing in response to Rob and Salok's ( and also Neil's ) discussion about rigs. For a while now, I've been trying to take "rig" apart in my head, to see why I use them and what they actually do and how. this is my thought's on Carp rig's, but I start it with two caveats:


1) ALL rigs will catch carp at least some of the time. There is no right or wrong.


2) This is just about Carp. Barbel would be different, eels different again etc,


So, let's look at rig's and see what can be changed, and why in this thread i've ( and commonhunter has ) discussed a rig that isn't used much at all in carping now. We know that "rig" is only the third essential thing that we need to catch our fish, but it is still important.


Carp feed in three ways. They feed like tench, they feed like pike and they feed like rudd on a hot day. They are happy to switch between either mood.


Tench feed with head down, tail up, hoovering the bottom, or sucking individual items, and sometimes attacking the bed to get to particles and morsels of food. This is when they are on full on "FEED!!!" mood.


Interestngly, they also act like tench AFTER IT'S FED in that it's "head down" then " Head up, turn, move" before head down again.


Pike feed differently. Pike attack things, we know this, but they also eat dead things. When a pike see's a dead thing, what it does is pretty cool. It will swim up to it, head slightly down,


and BLOW. the dead thing is then pushed off the bottom. It then SUCKS and the dead thing is in it's mouth. It will either swallow, or blow again to reject. Pike are lazy sods. In general, carp will turn after a "suck".


Rudd feed a third way. Chuck bread onto a lake on a hot day. The roach will nibble at it from below. But rudd are different. If they feel safe, they will swim really fast next to the bait, or swat it, or turn super quick next to it. This creates a vortex that pulls the bait under, it moves it. they then take it in those top few inches. Carp do this the other way around. If they are not in "FEED ME!!" mode, maybe they are on patrol, maybe they see something interesting they will swat their tails hard, and create a vortex that moves baits off the bottom a few inches, or swerve with their whole bodies. They will then turn and eat when the bait is rising/falling.


Sometimes, they combine the Pike and Rudd actions together, and churn up the bottom, and then SUCK.



Now let's compare two rigs.


1) 7 inch stiff fluro to in-line lead

2) running paternoster with a 2 foot tail


The stiff link works really well for "tench" mode of feeding. Head down, suck in bait, then Head up, turn, move, then head down. At the point of "turn" then the rig does it's magic. If we consider that a twenty pound carp is what, say 30" in length, then it has at best a turning circle of 40". By the time the carp has moved more than 45 degree's, the stiff link has hook it.


For "Pike" mode, the rig is poor. The "Suck" and "blow" doesn't happen naturally, as the lead anchors the bait down. This means the carp is a lot less likely to accept the bait. Sometimes it will, but not often


For "Rudd" mode, again, the rig isn't great, becuase to gain movement in the bait, the carp would have to create a sufficient vortice to cause the lead itself to move. Again, possible, but not likely.


On other thing that this rig allows is that the bait can move in a maximum of two dimensions. It can move left and right and backward/forwards. It's not great however at backwards/forwards.


The running paternoster works QUITE well for "tench" mode. In the same 40" turning circle, it has hooked the fish at 110 degree's ( if we assume a 3 inch link between tail and running swivel ).


This is still OK, the fish is hooked, but there has been slightly longer for a reject to happen.


For "Pike" mode, the bait can move free and the long tail will allow very naural movement. The Paternoster is great for this feeding tactic. Again, the more natural approach will mean the carp either moves away, leading to a hooking, or will turn first, again a hooking



In "rudd" mode, the bait can move naturally again, so we are also on a winner for the reasons above.


If we look at the paternoster, we also see that it allows movement in THREE dimensions. It allows "up" and "down" as well as left/right" and "back/forward". However, the "back/orwards" movement is also drastically improved.


So, Carp feed in three ways. The first rig, a common one it would seem, will work REALLY well for one one of the ways, but poorly and very poorly for the other two.


The second rig is slightly less good in the first situation, but still effective. It's a huge degree better at the second two though.


By using an un-trendy rig, we trade off a small amount of advantage in a specific situation for a much greater advantage in two others. Playing the odd's, it would seem likely that the paternoster will be more effective more of the time than the stiff link.


It comes down to to what I said in another thread. Many of the rigs that are in use are refinements based on refinements, and, for very specific situations, are exceptional. However, what seems to have been forgotten is that these rigs ARE for specific situations. The reasoning behind them has been lost, leading to the super-specialised method being considered the be correct for most situations.


So, why doesn't a running lead set up work just the same. Two reasons. Turning moments and "up/Down"


Assume we have "tench" or "rudd" happening. The sequences goes Eat, Turn, Move.


With a running lead directly on the line, as soon as "turn" happens, no matter how friction free the swivel ring in the lead is, a moment is created. Where there is a mement, there is a force

exerted. The fish will ALWAYS feel resistance. As soon as this happens, the changes of a Reject happening are increased.


Also, if we have "pike" or "rudd" there is no Up/Down movement if the fish wants to move the bait vertically, again leading to a higher chance of Rejects happening.


With the paternoster, the link between the lead and the running swivel means firstly that there is no fixed point, until the line compeletly tightens, where there is a moment created. This


means we have a reduced likelyhood of a drop. Also, if the bait wants to move vertically , it can do more easily.


All rig's catch fish. But I say some do it better than others, and the rigs that a lot of experts say catch lots of fish I'm saying aren't as good as they say they are, which is bound to raise hackles or at least eye brows, and this I don't want to happen. But please have a think about what I'm saying. To me and the people I fish with, it seems a logical way of looking at things.


It just seems to "click". A lot of it is more "yeah, that sounds kinda right" before we actually look at WHY it's right, but if your gut feel says it may make sence, then run with it.


Have a look through some carping magazines and apply "tench" "pike" and "rudd" thinking to what you see. The running paternoster isn't perfect, but it's a good starting point to think about.



I know what I've written is pretty long and is drifting into the realms of a-level maths, but I'm hoping that you'll see where I'm coming from. Let me know if there are bit's that don't make sense, or you want more detail on.


Again, these are just my personal opinions. I THINK they're right, and they seem to stand up to evidence, but I could be totally wrong. I'd really like it if people pulled what I'm saying apart so I/we can see if it stands up well.


Many thanks



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I think I understand and agree with most of what you're saying.

I also think that a lot of anglers forget how Carp feed.


Hence why 1 particular rig becomes In-Vogue. At the moment the trend seems to be for short rigs put in a bag full of pellets. Now the idea behind this is as soon as a fish lifts after taking the bait the Carp is hooked in the bottom lip?


Imagine if you will where a Carp has to move further between boilies to get its next mouthfull, this is where a lengthened hooklength will work. The lengthened rig will hook as the Carp turns and aims for the next bait? The confidence concept of the lengthened rig intrigues me, as is it possible to have a hooklength material that the fish are not aware of?


Notice I put question marks behind my theories as although they make sense in my mind are they valid in others?


I think if I carried on with my thoughts I would be leaving behind the Complicated Rigs thread, as there seems to be a correlation between Baiting Patterns and rigs. Hence shorter rigs work on tight beds of bait and longer rigs work on more spread areas.


In most cases the paternoster tail will give better bite indication, but its use is negated by, God Forbid, having to strike and even worse, sit right next to the rods.

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Guest Anonymous

One thing that is mentioned above, a long hooklenght my be more beneficial to use but is there a hooklength that would not be visable in a long length? I know some braids can loop up and cause fish to spook? even some sinking braids do this,

Surely a short hook link, bolt rig is going to offer better hooking potential as there is less movement until the fish is hooked and less time for the carp to sense danger?

Having said that it would not be as good in a 'pike mode' situation, how far can the average double figure carp suck a bait in from? lets say a boilie for example as this is a common carp bait.

Did any of that make sense or am i running on squit?

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I think the best material I have found for long hooklengths is Kryston SuperSilk. In its white state it looks pretty obvious, but it does take up the colour of the botton very quickly and it can be coloured.

Another way of fishing a long hooklength is to use a concertina effect, with the use of Superstiff. The hooklength is folded into thirds and then stuck into position with the Superstiff.

Alternatively we get into the realms of complication with Extending rigs and lengths of braid attached but not fixed with rig rings.


I think how far a Carp can suck a Boilie in from depends on the make up of the bottom. On a clear firm bottom, the Carp can suck in from further away than on a silty water, where it may actually have to pick it up. It is for these clear water sucking Carp that the Sliding hair was invented.

Also there are different types of feeding between Carp. I have seen some pick up baits, while others sucked them in. This is on the same water, some fish suck, while others pick up. Does this mean that we need to use different rigs dependant on what type of feeding Carp we have in front of us?

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Guest Anonymous

It would seem that way!

If what we've just said is true we would not catch as many carp on a shorter rig than we would on a longer rig as the the bait would get taken in weather they sucked it or picked it up, i'm not sure I agree with this as on a longer rig the carp have more time to sense danger than on a shorter rig, having said that a carp that was sucking the bait in would prob be spooked off by a short fixed rig and not take it in in the first place, i'm getting confused now!

I think what i'm trying to say is that in my opinion I would have said that a shorter rig would be best but after reading the other posts i'm not to sure now! I think no matter what rig you use there is always going to be a down fall to it.

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Confidence (Long) rigs I think are best when the Baits are further apart or even single baits. I mean if a fish has to move 2foot plus to get to the next Boilie(?) then a 23inch long hooklength will catch that fish out (in theory).


Problem is as you stated, how can we get a Hooklength material that the fish can't detect? Fluorocarbon or mono because of their inherent stiffness will create resistance.

Add into that a long hair maybe 2 inches long, going back to the original Lennie Middleton idea you have something that hardly anyone fishes. With the changing of the length of the hair you create some very unusual situations that the Carp can't work out.

I.e. A long hooklength, changing the length of the Hair. If you consider that to crush and eat the bait then a Carp has to take it to its Pharyngeal teeth some 4inches into its mouth.


Again after watching fish feed on PVA bags where its 1 mouthful of food then a short hooklength will work. The Carp is just getting a mouthful of food then, bang, in goes the hook into the lip.


The majority of Anglers are all fishing hooklengths of 6-9 inches long and Fluorocarbon seems to be the fashion at the moment. Most anglers are using the hair so that the bait is resting against the shank.

I'll try to be different, if everyone fishes Fluorcarbon hooklengths then I'll stick with my 10-12 inch braid lengths with a proper hair.

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Guest Anonymous

I dont have an answer for the hooklength a carp cannot detected [wish i did!]


You mention the long/confidence rigs as being more effective if the baits are far apart or single hook baits, why do you think this? I would say a shorter rig would be more effective [say 4-6inch] as the fish would be hooked sooner than say having to move 23inch, surely by the time the carp has moved 6 inches it is to late and will be hooked, rather than having to move 23in before being hooked? or will the carp realise and try and eject the bait and hook itself?

Am I making sense or have I missed the point?

Did you mean that a longer rig is more likely to be picked up by carp of different behaviour?

I am sure I have contridicted myself here to be honest but it seems right to me at the time!

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I think that with most people fishing short hooklengths the Carp are being conditioned to feeling for the lead at ,say, 6inches.


With a longer, softer hooklength the Carp are not feeling the Lead until they have moved a long way. Also a bait on a long hair and long hooklength will behave more naturally in the water if the Carp is sucking and blowing. My theory is simply that a Carp that has to move 2 foot with the bait to get to the next one. The Carp are picking up and are unable to use the Lead to free the hook from their mouth as I think they can with a short mono/fluorocarbon (stiff) hooklength. I also don't think that with a long supple braid hooklength the Carp will necessarily realise that there is a hook attached until it moves to the lead. Would this give us better indications?

As for single baits or baits that are far apart I'm not 100%sure, I know what I'm thinking, but can't necessarily explain it.


I was thinking I think that a long hooklength with a long hair can be picked up by both suckers and picking up Carp, whereas a short hooklength can only be picked up by Picking up Carp.


In terms of your answer I don't think you've misssed the point, I'm playing with everyones answers to get my mind thinking over presentations for Fish. Like you I'm sure that at some point I've contradicted myself, but just want to see if the theory is as good as it seems to be in my head.

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