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Bait separation


dorsetwizard2
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For quite some time I think it's fair to say that the majority of carp anglers have been led to believe that rigs such as the line aligner, rig ring blowback, shrink tube blowback etc have been the way to go. Certainly the 'palm' test shows that a rig using a mugga style hook with some silicon tubing on the bend of the hook turns just about as instantly as you're likely to achieve. But is it really the right thing?

 

I remember when I first started targeting carp, many many years after fishing rivers and small lakes with simple float and ledger tactics, I knew of no other rig than a knotless knot tied with the same mono I was using for mainline. (10lb Big game I think it was) The knot was whipped up the shank, so that it finished in line with the point of the hook. No tubing or rings to be seen. I left a gap of about 10mm from bend of the hook to the boilie. Probably 'the' standard knotless knot hair rig.

 

That rig accounted for 2 20lb fish in 3 12 hour overnighters on a local clay pit fishing with 1 rod, no alarm, no hangers, no fancy hooks. I used a Drennan super specialist in a size 8, simply becuse thats what I used for any big bait fishing.

 

I went on to catch many many fish from my club lakes on the same rigs.

 

Then I moved onto the 'more advanced' rigs such as the line aligner, the blowback, withy pool etc, and in turn moved to harder, bigger waters, where I continued to use the 'advanced' rigs.

 

But now it seems that the buzz word in carp rigs is seperation. So we're doing away with the tubing and tying rigs such as the KD rig which forces the hair away from the shank in a very agressive manner. So in reality, it's gone full circle back to what I started with! The standard hair rig that I tied had very good seperation, and as soon as the tubing is added, there is almost no seperation at all.

 

I have always thought that adding the tubing was in some way detracting from the ability of the hook to catch in the carps mouth, but the 'palm' test told me it was the right thign to do because it turns so fast!

 

I havent bought a magazine for a good 3 or 4 years now, but the ones I did buy obviously brainwashed me into using something I wasnt really in full agreement with. I put it down to me being a bit dim and not understanding 'rig mechanics'. Now I'm thinking for myself, and I believe that the standard hair rig with good bait seperation, tied with the right hook and material, will be a more effective rig than any rig that has the bait restricted in it's movement. When the carp blows out the bait, chances are, the hook will go with it due to it being so close. Yes, alonger hair may help, but why bother with all the fiddly bit's n bobs on those rigs when a standard hair rig does exactly the same thing?

 

 

(sorry, I edited title typo NG)

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Very interesting thread. They do say 'keep it simple' and sometimes they can make things extremely difficult to follow. The magazines can put as many diagrams as they like in, but its not always that easy. Besides, how many people follow them to the letter? More to the point, how many rigs are out there that have had the 'that'll have to do' treatment? Lets face it, we've all seen some horror rigs in our time! I know I have!

 

I always (underlined) use a standard approach. It works! As long as the hooks sharp, thats all I'm concerned about.

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Believe it or not I don't work on Rig Mechanics.

 

For the majority of my Carp fishing since 1994 I have used pretty basic Line aligners or Knotless knotted rigs, although depending on situation I have used D-rigs or my version of the revolving/sliding hair rig.

 

I also know that the over the "Palm" and "over the thumb" tests can show that a hook will flip in to the fishes mouth, yet in reality it doesn't always do that.

 

In most cases the only thing we need to change are the rig length or the hair length, yet I'm willing to bet that very few people actually look into the fishes mouth to see exactly where the Hook has hit home (unless they've watched Danny Fairbrass DVD's :wink::roll: )

 

Nowadays the fashion is for Branded rigs and hooks, the Curve/Kurve, Longshank, Wide Gape etc, yet people do not think about the actual tying or even the hooklink material, all of which can make a hook behave differently depending on the fish, or even what the lakebed is made up of.

 

In most cases most of the anglers who are confusing themselves seeing what they do in the articles would be far better off with that Drennan Super Specialist and putting that simple rig in the right place rather than worrying about the rig as opposed to its location :!:

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Well done for "sticking to your guns". It makes such a refreshing change to read posts on here about someone who has actually thought their fishing through by experimenting and comparing results (in other words..... 'Getting off their own backside to do it for themselves') instead of expecting all the answers on a plate for them.

 

Keep hauling!

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Iv played around with all kinds of fancy rigs and tested a lot of them on various commercials and also in my fish tanks! The one that has always outdone all the others was a standard bottom bait on a knotless knot with mono (always seems to outfish braid for me) and a small bit of silicone to keep hair in line with the bend of the hook in the same way as you did (with the line whipping down the shank.)

 

I think unless it is a very heavily fished lake with wary carp the best way to catch is to keep it simple, you wouldnt believe some of the rigs iv pulled out of lakes! Sometimes I just wonder what the point of them all is!

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I think a lot of people forget that Rigs tend to be designed for the Fish in a particular water (Withy Pool Rig, Bent Hook rig (I won't advocate that definitely), Savay Looney Rig etc), and as such the rig needs to be set for how particular fish behave. Yet across various waters there are similarities, and there is also "Rig Fashion" as published by the magazines.

 

As I said in my previous post, the majority of anglers are currently using whatever is the Magazines latest wonder presentation, not really thinking about their fishing and how the carp in their water behave. Go onto an "overstocked commercial" and just about any rig put in the right place with the right feed situation will produce, that can be a standard knotless knotted rig. The fish need to feed, they need to take an anglers baits and so the rig is just there as a risk.

 

Yet on highly pressured Big Fish waters, where the BIG Carp are more wary then the rigs will need to be adapted to produce and be something that the Carp are not expecting.

 

It is there that Rig development comes from, but, always that but, the anglers who catch those Big Fish get their name in lights, or the press, and that rig that they have adapted or developed is the new or regurgitated fashion.

 

Also most anglers who fish waters do not move on in the logical extension to the standard. From the standard hair the basic adaption was by Hutchy to an Extending hair or Roger Smiths D-rig, both very successful, yet I bet a vast number of anglers have just jumped past these adaptations to the current wonder rig.

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So how do you know when to use a certain rig then?

 

It's all very well saying you use a certain rig in certain situations, but expand on that a little please.

 

Fishing the waters I do, you do not get the opportunity to watch fish feed, so how the hell are you going to know what rig is going to produce the goods?

 

Say next time out I change to a D-rig and catch the biggest fish in the lake....and the following session I try out a withy pool and catch a couple of whackers....am I all of a sudden an elite angler, or have i just been lucky?

 

Whats to say it's the rigs that are helping to catch the fish? Would they have been snagged on that simple knotless knot anyway just becasue they were havin it at the time?

 

To be quite brutal, I think alot of anglers will claim that they use a certain rig in certain situations to make themsleves appear to be the next terry Hearn, and catch regardless of the rigs they use, not because of them.

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So how do you know when to use a certain rig then?

 

It's all very well saying you use a certain rig in certain situations, but expand on that a little please.

 

Fishing the waters I do, you do not get the opportunity to watch fish feed, so how the hell are you going to know what rig is going to produce the goods?

 

Say next time out I change to a D-rig and catch the biggest fish in the lake....and the following session I try out a withy pool and catch a couple of whackers....am I all of a sudden an elite angler, or have i just been lucky?

 

Whats to say it's the rigs that are helping to catch the fish? Would they have been snagged on that simple knotless knot anyway just becasue they were havin it at the time?

 

To be quite brutal, I think alot of anglers will claim that they use a certain rig in certain situations to make themsleves appear to be the next terry Hearn, and catch regardless of the rigs they use, not because of them.

 

You might be right in some cases but far from all.

Before I even try to fish a lake I try to get a detailed underwater substrate report,

I then do a lot of leading with a 4oz-pear lead and 60 lb braid.

By tying the two together I get a good idea of how the bigger carp will feed.

That then tells me what type of rig I should be using.

What a lot of people cannot get into their heads is a lot of different rig work in exactly the same way mechanically.

What you are trying to do is find the method of feeding, then you choose one of the rigs that will present the bait in a fashion that will work mechanically on that feeding fish.

The reason so many rigs have been invented is that people will always try and make a rig that will hook better/quicker than any other in the same situation.

The person who sticks to one rig alone is the person denying themselves of valuable fish.

 

Earlier this year I fished an estate lake.

I fished running leads and the hook was knotless knotted with an aggressive hair on normal nylon line with bottom baits.

I was catching fish like there was no tomorrow and there was no reason to change.

But these were nave fish in turbid water.

The following week I was on quite different water, an old very large gravel pit with a very low stock.

If I had fished the same as the previous week I think I would have caught in the end by luck, but I do not think I would have caught what I did.

I fished running leads again but the rig consisted of the much-maligned 360o rig attached to flouro and critically balanced snowmen.

If you saw how the fish were hooked you would not have any doubts; to say the hooks were in is an understatement.

 

There is another side to this.

The selfish person inside of me says the less people think about these things and stick to their guns and use simple rigs, the better it is for the like of me.

Frank

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So how do you know when to use a certain rig then?

 

It's all very well saying you use a certain rig in certain situations, but expand on that a little please.

 

Fishing the waters I do, you do not get the opportunity to watch fish feed, so how the hell are you going to know what rig is going to produce the goods?

 

Say next time out I change to a D-rig and catch the biggest fish in the lake....and the following session I try out a withy pool and catch a couple of whackers....am I all of a sudden an elite angler, or have i just been lucky?

 

Whats to say it's the rigs that are helping to catch the fish? Would they have been snagged on that simple knotless knot anyway just becasue they were havin it at the time?

 

To be quite brutal, I think alot of anglers will claim that they use a certain rig in certain situations to make themsleves appear to be the next terry Hearn, and catch regardless of the rigs they use, not because of them.

 

You might be right in some cases but far from all.

Before I even try to fish a lake I try to get a detailed underwater substrate report,

I then do a lot of leading with a 4oz-pear lead and 60 lb braid.

By tying the two together I get a good idea of how the bigger carp will feed.

That then tells me what type of rig I should be using.

What a lot of people cannot get into their heads is a lot of different rig work in exactly the same way mechanically.

What you are trying to do is find the method of feeding, then you choose one of the rigs that will present the bait in a fashion that will work mechanically on that feeding fish.

The reason so many rigs have been invented is that people will always try and make a rig that will hook better/quicker than any other in the same situation.

The person who sticks to one rig alone is the person denying themselves of valuable fish.

 

Earlier this year I fished an estate lake.

I fished running leads and the hook was knotless knotted with an aggressive hair on normal nylon line with bottom baits.

I was catching fish like there was no tomorrow and there was no reason to change.

But these were nave fish in turbid water.

The following week I was on quite different water, an old very large gravel pit with a very low stock.

If I had fished the same as the previous week I think I would have caught in the end by luck, but I do not think I would have caught what I did.

I fished running leads again but the rig consisted of the much-maligned 360o rig attached to flouro and critically balanced snowmen.

If you saw how the fish were hooked you would not have any doubts; to say the hooks were in is an understatement.

 

There is another side to this.

The selfish person inside of me says the less people think about these things and stick to their guns and use simple rigs, the better it is for the like of me.

Frank

 

I love it when I can follow Frank's posts with such an observation and him quoting and giving such a reply to a very well thought out query as yours :wink::lol:

 

DW,

For years my first thought has always been to keep it as simple as possible when moving onto a new water, on the Reservoir I did use Knotless knotted or line aligned rigs to coated braid with the exception of snowman baits when I preferred a D-rig (don't know, don't ask. I actually queried my thinking on the "Complicated rigs" thread that is still available in Advanced Carp Fishing section), however like Frank I work out the Lakebed to suit what rigs I use for what I want to achieve.

 

When I moved onto the Hertfordshire syndicate I figured that the lake was going to be more pressured than my standard waters and that I wanted to use Double baits with a Snowman. I had not been able to see any Carp feeding on a previous visit. I had also figured that I needed a rig that could behave similarly on clay and gravel. This pressure I figured would mean that basic rigs while giving the potential to work if the feeding situation was right, would be regularly used. As a result I wanted something that the Carp had NOT seen, or unlikely to have seen before or for a long time, this rig turned out to be very effective, but other rigs would probably or maybe possibly have produced the same result if put in the right place.

 

In Franks post the last line makes me chuckle as in the past I have said "keep it simple", but I match my hooklink material to the lakebed to be as camouflaged as possible. It would make many anglers cringe when they see the effects I go to camouflage Lead, hooklink etc

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I then do a lot of leading with a 4oz-pear lead and 60 lb braid.

By tying the two together I get a good idea of how the bigger carp will feed.

 

Any chance you could expand on that statement?

 

My survey of what rig to put out is based on length more than anything else. I have now grown comfortable with fishing a curve shank hook on a simple knotless knot rig made out of supernova. Mainly because i rushed into the hype of rig making without understanding it and just got my self confused :?

 

From what i can figure out is the rig should be decided on the lake bed and the food item you are using. My basic rule of thumb is if in silt then use a longish rig especially if fishing boilie, but what happens if you fish silt with particles? as they say smaller food items you should use a small rig as the carp are not moving and could eject a long rig very easily. Then gravel ban its clean you can shorten the rig because of no chance of the rig burying.

 

Am i correct in saying that?

 

Its the same with the lead system, that should be decided on what the lake bottom is, shouldn't it? as i feel a lead clip inline etc.... is virtually useless in silt or soft clay etc... as the lead goes first which could leave the hooklink swivel buried and making the presentation awfull.

 

Whats your views guy's?

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standard good old fashioned hair rig for me with bottom baits and maybe a little different for pop ups on the rare occasion i use them, the mags are always trying to get anglers onto the latest wonder rig , or super duper 3.7/8 tc rod and such, just to keep mail opprder tackle outlets busy/ happy

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